Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

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Are you sure? This passage is quoted by first time by Justine Martyr (middle of the second Century). See here: http://vridar.org/?s=pierced+my+hands .
If I had suggested the contrary in this forum I apologise. I suspected that there was something no clear and I have confirmed it.

That’s why we know that Paul assigns to Scriptures “that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures” and “that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures”. (1 Cor. 15:3–8). No mention of the cross here and no quotes of biblical passages that had suggested his interpretation of the crucifixion of the Lord. This reinforces my presumption that Paul has other sources that the Bible and revelations. Perhaps you can provide us with a Pauline passage where we can identify his biblical source of crucifixion. The epistle to Corinthians is not the case.

Thanks for that vridar link to the article discussing the mistranslation of Ps 22 last lines.
"The first appearance of “they pierced my hands and feet”

Christians first began to use this Greek translation after our gospels were written. Justin Martyr refers to this passage (they pierced my hands and feet) in his Dialogue of Trypho, paras 97 and 104. The Gospel of Peter likewise appears to know of it. At least it says explicitly narrates a scene where nails are being pulled from Jesus’ hands. (It is possible, of course, that this is taken from the allusion to the nail prints in the hands of Jesus in the Gospel of John — which also may have been written much later than the other gospels.) Whatever the case with this gospel, it is clear that the earliest indisputable knowledge of this Greek text of Psalm 22:16 is from the mid-second century with Justin Martyr.

It appears that some time between the time the canonical gospels were written and the time of Justin Martyr, this famous “prophetic” verse was introduced in a Greek translation of the Psalms by Christian scribes."

That discussion about the confusion about the meaning of the word kaari was most illuminating, wasn't it.

Yes, Tim O'Neill has always argued that the bar is raised in relation to Jesus; so that arguments which are accepted for other figures in ancient history, are suddenly inadequate for Jesus. I've never really followed this through, but it would be interesting, to see how other ancient figures are discussed in comparison with Jesus. ...

Whatever TON's arguments, actually it seems to me the reverse is true- the bar is lowered in relation to Jesus. Since what we have is hagiography unsubstantiated by outside sources, a more apt comparison to Jesus' story would be that of Judith or even Esther, don't you think?

Even supposing such an argument as you claim for TON were true, who are these figures in ancient history you're thinking of?
 
Are you sure? This passage is quoted by first time by Justine Martyr (middle of the second Century). See here: http://vridar.org/?s=pierced+my+hands .
If I had suggested the contrary in this forum I apologise. I suspected that there was something no clear and I have confirmed it.

That’s why we know that Paul assigns to Scriptures “that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures” and “that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures”. (1 Cor. 15:3–8). No mention of the cross here and no quotes of biblical passages that had suggested his interpretation of the crucifixion of the Lord. This reinforces my presumption that Paul has other sources that the Bible and revelations. Perhaps you can provide us with a Pauline passage where we can identify his biblical source of crucifixion. The epistle to Corinthians is not the case.



David, have a look at the Wiki entry on this Psalms-22 passage (see link and first paragraph reproduced below).

However - it really does not matter what your link to Vridar says on this at all. Because I am not saying that Paul could find any literally specific mention of a crucified messiah in the original Hebrew OT.

All that I am saying is that Paul believed that certain OT prophecies, and possibly other earlier religious writing too (eg the Dead Sea Scrolls) had various passages for which Paul believed God had given him the power to understand a true meaning as references to the messiah … whatever was actually written, Paul believed that the passages actually contained hidden meaning telling him that the messiah had been persecuted, killed, and raised on the third day. And that’s what it means in Paul’s letters when it repeatedly insists that his knowledge of the messiah has been revealed to him by God and Jesus in accordance with scripture.

Apart from which, also keep in mind that the earliest copy we have of what Paul was supposed to have originally written about a crucifixion, dates to around c.200AD as P46. And that is about 50 years after the usual date of the writing from Justyn Martyr.

In that Vridar article, I think it merely says that quote “ … it is clear that the earliest indisputable knowledge of this Greek text of Psalm 22:16 is from the mid-second century with Justin Martyr.” … but that is by no means saying that the Septuagint text saying “pierced” (or similar mistranslation) was not in fact in common circulation in the early 1st century at the time of Paul … it (Vridar) is only saying that the earliest definite known mention is mid second century … whereas, according to the Wiki entry (see below) the Septuagint was written as early as 2nd-3rd century BC, and afaik both the Septuagint and various other Greek translations were in common use in Greece, Egypt and Israel from around that date, and where iirc Jews in that region inc. Paul and the gospel writers were all by that time speaking and writing mostly in Greek (see the various Wiki passages quoted below, and note the highlighted parts). In which case it seems likely to me that Paul and the others were probably first learning, and then preaching, what had been written in those Greek translations, and probably doing that as a result of what they had themselves received as word-of-mouth learning rather than ever reading any original ancient Hebrew OT texts themselves.

There is a great deal more to say about all this, inc. the way in which the significant letters in the original Hebrew words were hand written using very similar pen strokes to mean quite different things, leaving the interpretation of those words open to quite subjective conclusions, and including also the fact that the original handwritten texts which we are talking about, seem to be only very poorly preserved and faded anyway, so that it is really by no means clear what actual word was written or meant in the original.

But anyway, see what Wiki says below -
-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/They_have_pierced_my_hands_and_my_feet

They have pierced my hands and my feet
Text of Psalm 22:16

This verse, which is Psalm 22:17 in the Hebrew verse numbering, reads in the Masoretic Text as: כארי ידי ורגלי ("like a lion my hands and my feet"). The full verse of the Masoretic text reads: כי סבבוני כלבים עדת מרעים הקיפוני כארי ידי ורגלי׃

The syntactical form of the Hebrew phrase appears to be lacking a verb, and this is supplied in the Aramaic targum which reads "they bite like a lion my hands and my feet". The Septuagint has ωρυξαν χειράς μου και πόδας ("they have dug/pierced my hands and feet"), evidently taking the Hebrew to be based on the root ‏כרה, supported by the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hahal Hever (5/6Hev1b f8_9:12) ‏כר[ו ]ידי . 'Dig' has been understood in the sense of 'pierced' (as in Psalm 40:7/6), hence the rendering in the Syriac ("they have pierced my hands and feet").
Aquila of Sinope, a Christian convert to Judaism, undertook two translations of the Psalms from Hebrew to Greek. In the first, he renders the verse "they disfigured my hands and feet"; in the second he revised this to "they have bound my hands and feet". Jerome, translating the Psalms for the Latin Vulgate also made two versions. The earlier, from the Hexaplar Greek, reads "they have dug my hands and feet"; the later, made directly from pre-Masoretic Hebrew texts, reads with Aquila "they have bound my hands and feet".


Explanations and interpretations
The Masoretic Text reading presents the word ‏ארי . An additional form of the word for lion ( ‏אריה ) Arie, (without the prefix that denotes, like or as; as in [כָּ אֲרִ י] K'ari) occurs twice in Psalm 22, in verses 13/14 and 21/22. This translation in English is not fixed, providing the various rendering we see in English translations.

Gregory Vall noted that is possible that the LXX translators were faced with כארו; i.e. as in the Masoretic text, but ending with the longer letter vav (ו), rather than the shorter yod (י). This word is not otherwise known in Biblical Hebrew, but could be an alternative spelling derived from the root כרה, "to dig".[2] Vall proceeds to note nineteen conjectural emendations,[3] while Brent Strawn appeals to iconographical data in support of the MT reading.[4] A Psalms scroll was uncovered at Qumran, but is damaged at this point. However the editors of a psalms fragment from Nahal Hever do find in that text the word in question written as כארו, as Vall had previously speculated, and hence they support the reading "they dug at my hands and my feet". [5]

While it is true that an interpretation of "they have pierced" was preferable to many Christian commentators on account of its christological implications, there is no evidence that either the Jews or the Christians tampered with the text. The phrase is not quoted anywhere in the New Testament, despite the Septuagint reading being of a form that might be thought to prefigure the piercing of Jesus' hands and feet. So the phrase remains an unresolved translation dispute.





See also below re. Paul writing his Epistels in Greek language and his use of the Greek Septuagint word Kyrios -




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyrios_(biblical_term)
The Greek word Kyrios (Κύριος) means "lord, Lord, master".[1] In religious usage it designates God. It is used in both the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Bible and the Greek New Testament.[2][3][4][5] Kyrios appears about 740 times in the New Testament, usually referring to Jesus.The use of kyrios in the New Testament has been the subject of debate among modern scholars, and three schools of thought exist on that topic. The first is that based on the Septuagint usage, the designation is intended to assign to Jesus the Old Testament attributes of God. The reasoning here being, that at the time the Septuagint was written, when reading out loud, Jews pronounced Adonai, the Hebrew word for "Lord", when they encountered the name of God, "YHWH", which was thus translated into Greek in each instance as kyrios. And the early Christians, the majority of whom were speakers of Greek, would have been deeply familiar with the Septuagint. The second is that as the early Church expanded, Hellenistic influences resulted in the use of the term. The third is that it is a translation of the Aramaic title Mari applied to Jesus.[6]
In everyday Aramaic, Mari was a very respectful form of polite address, well above "teacher" and similar to rabbi. In Greek this has at times been translated as kyrios. While the term Mari expressed the relationship between Jesus and his disciples during his life, the Greek kyrios came to represent his lordship over the world.[7]
The Gospel of John seldom uses kyrios to refer to Jesus during his ministry, but does so after the Resurrection, although the vocative kyrie (meaning sir) appears frequently.[8] The Gospel of Mark never applies the term kyrios as a direct reference to Jesus, unlike Paul who uses it 163 times.[9] When Mark uses kyrios (e.g., in 1:3, 11:9, 12:11, etc.) it is in reference to God. Mark does, however, use kyrios in passages where it is unclear whether it applies to God or Jesus, e.g., in Mark 5:19 or Mark 11: 3.[9]
One consequence of the use of kyrios to refer to Jesus in the New Testament is that almost all Old Testament references to God (except God the Father and the Holy Spirit) can then apply to Jesus.[2] Kyrios is a key element of the Christology of Apostle Paul. Most scholars agree that the use of kyrios, and hence the Lordship of Jesus, predated the Pauline Epistles, but that Saint Paul expanded and elaborated on that topic.[6] More than any other title, kyrios defined the relationship between Jesus and those who believed in him as Christ: Jesus was their Lord and Master who was to be served with all their hearts and who would one day judge their actions throughout their lives.[10] The kyrios title for Jesus is central to the development of New Testament Christology, for the early Christians placed it at the center of their understanding and from that center attempted to understand the other issues related to the Christian mysteries.[11]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_languages
Languages of the New Testament
The books of the Christian New Testament are widely agreed to have originally been written in Greek, specifically Koine Greek, even though some authors often included translations from Hebrew and Aramaic texts. Certainly the Pauline Epistles were written in Greek for Greek-speaking audiences. See Greek primacy for further details. Koine Greek was the popular form of Greek which emerged in post-classical antiquity (c.300 BC – AD 300), and marks the third period in the history of the Greek language.[1] It is also called Alexandrian, Hellenistic, Common, or New Testament Greek.

Some scholars believe that some books of the Greek New Testament (in particular, the Gospel of Matthew) are actually translations of a Hebrew or Aramaic original. A famous example of this is the opening to the Gospel of John, which some scholars argue to be a Greek translation of an Aramaic hymn. Of these, a small number accept the Syriac Peshitta as representative of the original. See Aramaic primacy.
However, the received text of the New Testament is Greek, and nearly all translations are based upon the Greek text.
 
Yes, I wasn't making the argument that 'there is more/better evidence for Jesus than for X', but I was citing Tim O'Neill's point that the bar is raised for Jesus by some people. As I said, I have never really made a point by point comparison, but it would presumably mean, for example, that contemporary evidence would not be required for X, but would be for Jesus, and so on.

As I showed with the list from Rationalwiki the argument is garbage. In fact, I would go so far as to say the bar is lowered when it come to Jesus.

When compared with other people who were supposedly famous during their life time and have problems similar to Jesus (Sun Tzu for example) their historicity is questioned but Jesus isn't.

Sun Tzu is an interesting case as you supposedly are holding his own writings in your hands (Art of War), and there are official historical records regarding him and yet historical inaccuracies and anachronisms in the actual text (sound familiar?) cause some scholars to question if Sun Tzu even existed.
 
There are some posters here who claim gMark is about an historical Jesus because it does not mention a Holy Ghost birth narrative however Faustus in Augustine's "Contra Faustum" will claim he believes the Gospel but does not believe that Jesus Christ was born and it is not logically that he should believe in the birth of Jesus.

It is claimed Augustine wrote between the late 4th-5th century.

Augustine's Contra Faustum 2
1. Faustus said: Do I believe the gospel? Certainly.

Do I therefore believe that Christ was born? Certainly not.

It does not follow that because I believe the gospel, as I do, I must therefore believe that Christ was born.

This I do not believe; because Christ does not say that He was born of men, and the gospel, both in name and in fact, begins with Christ's preaching.

It is clear that there were people who believed Jesus Christ came down from heaven WITHOUT birth.

1. gMark's Jesus had no birth narrative.

2. gMark's Jesus had no human father.

3. gMark's Jesus was the Son of God.

gMark's Jesus was the Son of God who came down from heaven into Galilee WITHOUT birth.

Marcion's Son of God also came down from heaven into Galilee WITHOUT birth.

Tertullian's Against Marcion 4
In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius (for such is Marcion's proposition) he “came down to the Galilean city of Capernaum,” of course meaning from the heaven of the Creator, to which he had previously descended from his own.

There never was any established evidence of an historical Jesus up to the end of the 4th century.

Up to the supposed time of Augustine Christians argued that Jesus Christ appeared on earth WITHOUT birth.

gMark's Jesus is no different to Marcion's Phantom Son of God--no human father and no birth narrative.
 
There are some posters here who claim gMark is about an historical Jesus because it does not mention a Holy Ghost birth narrative however Faustus in Augustine's "Contra Faustum" will claim he believes the Gospel but does not believe that Jesus Christ was born and it is not logically that he should believe in the birth of Jesus.

It is claimed Augustine wrote between the late 4th-5th century.

Augustine's Contra Faustum 2

It is clear that there were people who believed Jesus Christ came down from heaven WITHOUT birth.

1. gMark's Jesus had no birth narrative.

2. gMark's Jesus had no human father.

3. gMark's Jesus was the Son of God.

gMark's Jesus was the Son of God who came down from heaven into Galilee WITHOUT birth.

Marcion's Son of God also came down from heaven into Galilee WITHOUT birth.

Tertullian's Against Marcion 4

There never was any established evidence of an historical Jesus up to the end of the 4th century.

Up to the supposed time of Augustine Christians argued that Jesus Christ appeared on earth WITHOUT birth.

gMark's Jesus is no different to Marcion's Phantom Son of God--no human father and no birth narrative.

So, the religious beliefs of 5th century Clerics are more likely to reflect 1st Century Judean reality, than the scholarly research of 21st Century Historians... Is that what you are saying? Because that is what it looks like you are saying.

If so, I disagree. I think 5th Century Clerics are possibly the worst judges of objective facts when it comes to Jesus that you could possibly find. Why do you accept their words at face value? That doesn't seem very sceptical.

gMark also contains an episode where Jesus' Mother and Brothers come looking for him because they think he is crazy. So I think he is definitely portrayed as a Human there.

gMark was written centuries before Tertullian and Augustine, so I don't know why you think those guys had any sort of idea.

Please stop embarrassing the forum with this nonsense.
 
gMark was written centuries before Tertullian and Augustine

Errrr....no. I forged them all last night. But since I also created the world slightly after supper and only made appear to be around 4.54 billion years fold, there really isn't a whole lot of difference.

By the bye, I'm having tea with John Frum tomorrow. Should I give him maximara's regards?
 
So, the religious beliefs of 5th century Clerics are more likely to reflect 1st Century Judean reality, than the scholarly research of 21st Century Historians... Is that what you are saying? Because that is what it looks like you are saying.

Your statement is highly illogical--completely absurd and void of reason . Your assumptions are worthless.

There is no recovered evidence for the Jesus story and cult in the 1st century pre 70 CE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Testament_papyri

Augustine's "Contra Faustum" is potential evidence of Christian beliefs in antiquity. Essentially, Augustine should have been a witness of 4th-5th century Christian beliefs if he actually did argue with Faustus.

21st century Scholars MUST, MUST, MUST examine writings of antiquity in order to form an opinion of the past.

Augustine's Contra Faustum 2
1. Faustus said: Do I believe the gospel? Certainly.
Do I therefore believe that Christ was born? Certainly not.
It does not follow that because I believe the gospel, as I do, I must therefore believe that Christ was born.

This I do not believe; because Christ does not say that He was born of men, and the gospel, both in name and in fact, begins with Christ's preaching.

Augustine's Contra Faustum tend to corroborate that there was NO established evidence for an historical Jesus up to the end of 4th century.
 
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...
Augustine's Contra Faustum tend to corroborate that there was NO established evidence for an historical Jesus up to the end of 4th century.

They do nothing of the sort. This is either a blatant lie or sheer incompetence, take your pick.
 
Augustine's Contra Faustum 2

1. Faustus said: Do I believe the gospel? Certainly.
Do I therefore believe that Christ was born? Certainly not.
It does not follow that because I believe the gospel, as I do, I must therefore believe that Christ was born.

This I do not believe; because Christ does not say that He was born of men, and the gospel, both in name and in fact, begins with Christ's preaching.

They do nothing of the sort. This is either a blatant lie or sheer incompetence, take your pick.

Again, you expose that you have serious problems with logic.

Faustus' claim does not corroborate that it was established that Jesus was a known human being with earthly parents.

This is Augustine's reply to Faustus.

Augustine's Contra Faustum
2. Augustine replied: Well, in answer to your own questions, you tell us first that you believe the gospel, and next, that you do not believe in the birth of Christ; and [your reason is, that the birth of Christ is not in the gospel.

Augustine's Contra Faustum tends to corroborate that there was NO established evidence for an historical Jesus.

The birth of Jesus was NOT in the Gospel according to Faustus.
 
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Augustine's Contra Faustum 2





Again, you expose that you have serious problems with logic.

Faustus claims does not corroborate that it was established that Jesus was a known human being with earthly parents.

This is Augustine's reply to Faustus.

Augustine's Contra Faustum

Augustine's Contra Faustum tends to corroborate that there was NO established evidence for an historical Jesus.

The birth of Jesus was NOT in the Gospel according to Faustus.

But to reach your conclusion, you have to ignore just about everything else Ancient people wrote about Jesus.

Why does this one passage in a fictional dialogue outweigh every other mention of Jesus?

I know: "It's all fake!"

Useless.
 
Brainache said:
gMark was written centuries before Tertullian and Augustine, so I don't know why you think those guys had any sort of idea.

How illogical can you be?

gMark was written at least 1800 years before you were born so you have no sort of idea!

Please, you are not making much sense.

Don't ever tell me anything about the NT writers, Tertullian and Augustine because they wrote over 1500 years BEFORE you.

You have NO idea of what you are talking about.
 
dejudge said:
Again, you expose that you have serious problems with logic.

Faustus claims does not corroborate that it was established that Jesus was a known human being with earthly parents.

This is Augustine's reply to Faustus.

Augustine's Contra Faustum
2. Augustine replied: Well, in answer to your own questions, you tell us first that you believe the gospel, and next, that you do not believe in the birth of Christ; and your reason is, that the birth of Christ is not in the gospel.

Augustine's Contra Faustum tends to corroborate that there was NO established evidence for an historical Jesus.

The birth of Jesus was NOT in the Gospel according to Faustus.

But to reach your conclusion, you have to ignore just about everything else Ancient people wrote about Jesus.

Why does this one passage in a fictional dialogue outweigh every other mention of Jesus?

I know: "It's all fake!"

Useless.

What big lies.

It is the HJ QUESTERS who MUST ignore the statements about Jesus of Nazareth in the NT and Apologetics and argue that:

1. Jesus of Nazareth was NOT born in Bethlehem,

2. Jesus of Nazareth was NOT Tempted by Satan on the pinnacle of the Temple,

3, When Jesus was baptised that there was NO Holy Ghost Bird and voice from heaven.

4. Jesus of Nazareth did not walk on the sea.

5. Jesus of Nazareth did not transfigure.

6. Moses and Elijah did not resurrect when Jesus transfigured.

7. Jesus did not feed 9000 PEOPLE with a few fish and bread.

8. Jesus was NOT the Son of God without a human father.

9. Jesus did NOT curse a tree so that it would die from the roots.

10. Jesus did NOT resurrect.
 
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David


What has this to do with the question you were asked? Let me repeat the inquiry:
David


Yes or no, David, did the Romans view their crucified comrades to have died dishinorably?


The responsive answer is one selected from among::

- Yes, with whatever explanation you care to add.
(…)

Back over to you.

Of course. Spartacus also forced two Roman generals to fight naked as gladiators did. These were ways to humiliating the Romans. Similar to Caudine forks.
Do you need more precisions?
 
What big lies.

It is the HJ QUESTERS who MUST ignore the statements about Jesus of Nazareth in the NT and Apologetics and argue that:

1. Jesus of Nazareth was NOT born in Bethlehem,

2. Jesus of Nazareth was NOT Tempted by Satan on the pinnacle of the Temple,

3, When Jesus was baptised that there was NO Holy Ghost Bird and voice from heaven.

4. Jesus of Nazareth did not walk on the sea.

5. Jesus of Nazareth did not transfigure.

6. Moses and Elijah did not resurrect when Jesus transfigured.

7. Jesus did not feed 9000 PEOPLE with a few fish and bread.

8. Jesus was NOT the Son of God without a human father.

9. Jesus did NOT curse a tree so that it would die from the roots.

10. Jesus did NOT resurrect.

Do you think that not believing impossible things is bad?

Do you think Historians should believe these things?

Should they believe Herodotus when he talks about people walking around without heads, or ghost stories?

All Ancient Texts have superstitious stuff in them. Are you only learning this now?

Please learn more.
 
Do you think that not believing impossible things is bad?

Do you think Historians should believe these things?

Should they believe Herodotus when he talks about people walking around without heads, or ghost stories?

All Ancient Texts have superstitious stuff in them. Are you only learning this now?

Please learn more.

You have no idea what you are talking about. You were born in the 20th century so you have no sort of idea about writings of antiquity written centuries before you.

Don't tell me anything of your ideas about Herodotus because you don't want to hear anything from Tertullian, Augustine and Faustus.

Have you forgotten what you wrote so soon?

Brainache said:
gMark was written centuries before Tertullian and Augustine, so I don't know why you think those guys had any sort of idea.

You have no idea that Jewish, Greek and Roman Mythology is a fundamental part of the history of antiquity.

Plutarch's Romulus, the Son of God born of a Virgin is not different to the Myth fables of the Son of God born of a Virgin in the NT--they are products of Mythology.
 
You have no idea what you are talking about. You were born in the 20th century so you have no sort of idea about writings of antiquity written centuries before you.

Don't tell me anything of your ideas about Herodotus because you don't want to hear anything from Tertullian, Augustine and Faustus.

Have you forgotten what you wrote so soon?



You have no idea that Jewish, Greek and Roman Mythology is a fundamental part of the history of antiquity.

Plutarch's Romulus, the Son of God born of a Virgin is not different to the Myth fables of the Son of God born of a Virgin in the NT--they are products of Mythology.

Any time you feel like actually addressing the arguments, I'll be waiting. This isn't it.

You just ignore every point and carry on as if your position had some merit. Why?

It is obvious to everyone here that your "Hoax Theory" is a load of complete bollocks, so why do you persist? It only makes you look silly.
 
This is Augustine's reply to Faustus.

Augustine's Contra Faustum

Augustine's Contra Faustum tends to corroborate that there was NO established evidence for an historical Jesus.

The birth of Jesus was NOT in the Gospel according to Faustus.
This is all quite ludicrous. Augustine is trying to harmonise Mark who has no birth story, because he has no supernatural beliefs about Jesus' birth, with the other Synoptics. The question is, did the author of gMark believe in the virgin Ghost story? The obvious answer is no, because he doesn't mention any such thing. Neither does Paul. They had never heard of it. It was invented later. But of course Augustine does believe in the virgin story so he has to make Mark believe in it too. But Mark believed that Jesus became supernatural at the baptism, and Paul at the resurrection. Matthew and Luke believed, at conception, so they needed magic conception and birth stories, and duly produce them. Very different ones!
 
Any time you feel like actually addressing the arguments, I'll be waiting. This isn't it.

You just ignore every point and carry on as if your position had some merit. Why?

It is obvious to everyone here that your "Hoax Theory" is a load of complete bollocks, so why do you persist? It only makes you look silly.

What a big lies.

I have exposed your highly illogical arguments and fallacies.

Augustine Contra Faustum 2
1. Faustus said: Do I believe the gospel? Certainly.

Do I therefore believe that Christ was born? Certainly not.

It does not follow that because I believe the gospel, as I do, I must therefore believe that Christ was born.

This I do not believe; because Christ does not say that He was born of men, and the gospel, both in name and in fact, begins with Christ's preaching.

The author of gMark does not state anywhere that Jesus was born of men or had a human father.

gMark's Historical Jesus was a Phantom like Marcion's Son of God.

Augustine's Contra Faustum
2. Augustine replied: Well, in answer to your own questions, you tell us first that you believe the gospel, and next, that you do not believe in the birth of Christ; and your reason is, that the birth of Christ is not in the gospel.

The birth of Jesus in the Gospels was a LATE addition.

HJ was a PHANTOM from the start.
 
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What a big lies.

I have exposed your highly illogical arguments and fallacies.

Augustine Contra Faustum 2

The author of gMark does not state anywhere that Jesus was born of men or had a human father.

gMark's Historical Jesus was a Phantom like Marcion's Son of God.

Augustine's Contra Faustum


The birth of Jesus in the Gospels was a LATE addition.

HJ was a PHANTOM from the start.

You have said this before.

It was nonsense then, and it is nonsense now. It will always be nonsense, no matter how many times you repeat it.

This is useless.
 
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