Banning Incandescent Light Bulbs?

[Bri]

Kindly look back at my following post which compared a 150 watt pure incandescent driven by 60% contracted nuclear power with a 60 watt bulb driven off of coal.

I must admit I have no idea what you're talking about here. Are you saying that because you get 60% of your electricity from nuclear that somehow your old bulbs have the same environmental impact as efficient bulbs powered by electricity from coal?

If that's what you're trying to say, then you're assuming that nuclear power has a significantly smaller environmental impact than coal. That's a matter of opinion, and folks in Russia and Japan might disagree.

Regardless, it doesn't matter whether nuclear or coal has the larger environmental impact. You would still have a smaller impact on the environment using bulbs compliant with the new standards than you would using non-compliant bulbs whether you get your electricity from nuclear, coal, or a combination of the two.

So what exactly was your point?

-Bri

 

[mhaze]

I fail to see where the link says anything about where the light comes from.

Nevertheless, the temperature of the filament is not high enough to excite gas molecules to emit visible light. If I didn't screw up my math too much, in order to excite a molecule high enough so that it can emit a photon of 530 nm (nice green), you would need about 18,000 K. The filament is not THAT hot ... (A small part of the filament's spectrum is THAt hot. The part that we see as visible light. But that's only about 5-10% of the whole. The vast majority is in the lower energetic infrared ... waste heat)

If you start a gas discharge (with electrodes a bit apart and a high voltage between them), yes, then the light comes from the gas molecules. Such lamps are commonly called HID (High Intensity Discharge) when they use halogen (salts). If they use mercury, they're FLs or CFLs.

A standard tungsten-halogen bulb is still incandescent, and the light comes from the filament. The higher color temperature is solely an effect of the filament being driven harder and thus being hotter than a standard incandescent.

A halogen lamp, also known as a tungsten halogen lamp, is an incandescent lamp with a tungsten filament contained within an inert gas and a small amount of a halogen such as iodine or bromine....

I figured they were sort of a poor boy's version of these...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal-halide_lamp

and similar things that we use in industrial applications a lot, have for decades, and which have always been way more energy efficient than consumer bulbs.

 

[elgarak]

I figured they were sort of a poor boy's version of these...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal-halide_lamp

and similar things that we use in industrial applications a lot, have for decades, and which have always been way more energy efficient than consumer bulbs.

Ehh, no. That's most definitely a gas discharge lamp, typically not what's understood as 'halogen' bulbs you get for home lighting at Home Depot, which are the described incandescents with a bit of halogen for the transport reaction.

Household gas discharge lamps are FLs, or CFLs (using mercury vapor, which emits in the UV, which is then downconverted to visible light with a phosphor on the inside).

HID are also found for car headlights. Usually luxury cars, as the lamps and the support electronics is quite expensive. The cheap version are usually fakes with extremely hard driven halogen incandescents or LEDs. Cheap, but break often, since they are driven to the limit to get the blue high-temperature spectrum of real HIDs.

There are also some hand-held, battery powered lights using automotive HIDs. They're usually big, heavy suckers using a 12V lead-acid battery. The cheapest I know of cost about $120, with battery and charger. Quality HID handheld are typically $500..$5000 (search for MaxaBeam...).

 

[This is The End]

Just adding a link (as far as I saw from a quick read, it hasn't been added yet) to a related thread from 2 months ago.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198635

 

[This is The End]

Already, even before the first wave that would affect conventional 100 watt lightbulbs goes into effect in January of 2012, there are compliant incandescents on the market.

So again, this law most definitely is not a ban on incandescent light bulbs.

Therefore it cannot be a premature ban, since it's not a ban at all.

This sounds like double speak.

Could you answer specifically, yes or no...

Will stores be allowed to sell traditional 100 Watt* incandescent light bulbs after January 1 2012 or not.

*(NOT 100 Watt 'equivalent').

If the answer is no, that sure sounds like a ban, no matter what caused it.

 

[Bri]

This sounds like double speak.

Could you answer specifically, yes or no...

Will stores be allowed to sell traditional 100 Watt* incandescent light bulbs after January 1 2012 or not.

*(NOT 100 Watt 'equivalent').

If the answer is no, that sure sounds like a ban, no matter what caused it.

Joe is correct that it's not a ban on incandescents. The new efficiency standards would prohibit the manufacture (not the sale) of incandescents that don't meet minimum efficiency requirements, but there are newer incandescent bulbs that would comply.

-Bri

 

[This is The End]

The law says outdoor lightbulbs (which includes floodlights) are exempt.

Does that mean that, in January, they can just put the word Outdoor on all of the traditional 100 watt bulbs so we can still purchase them and then use them indoors?

(Sorry about the multiple posts in a row, I found this thread late.)

 

[This is The End]

Joe is correct that it's not a ban on incandescents. The new efficiency standards would prohibit the manufacture (not the sale) of incandescents that don't meet minimum efficiency requirements, but there are newer incandescent bulbs that would comply.

-Bri

That still sounds like double speak. You say they can't be manufactured, but aren't they all manufactured in China anyway? Does it also mean they can't be imported?

Again, for clarification, I am asking about traditional 100 watt light bulbs (NOT this 100 Watt equivilent stuff). The exact ones that have been in use for over 100 years.

 

[This is The End]

Again, it does. There is an entire class of incandescents which are now banned because of the law. Efficiency requirements are the mechanism for banning these bulbs, but the effect is absolutely to ban an entire class of incandescents. And the difference between the banned bulbs and the ones which are not banned is not simply efficiency. They have other functional differences as well, differences which make the high efficiency bulbs inferior in certain ways.

It is willful fantasy to pretend that the law doesn't ban incandescents. Nobody claimed it bans all incandescents, but it most definitely does ban an entire class of them.

I'm going to have to agree with this. If something that was sold in stores for over 100 years is suddenly not available, and the reason is a direct result of a law (and not because of something like supply), it is clearly a ban.

 

[Bri]

That still sounds like double speak. You say they can't be manufactured, but aren't they all manufactured in China anyway? Does it also mean they can't be imported?

They can't be imported either. Stores can sell any remaining stock of the non-compliant bulbs, so it wouldn't be entirely accurate to say that they can't be sold after January 2012.

Again, for clarification, I am asking about traditional 100 watt light bulbs (NOT this 100 Watt equivilent stuff). The exact ones that have been in use for over 100 years.

Wattage actually indicates the amount of energy the bulb uses, not how bright the bulb is. A 100 watt bulb meeting the new efficiency standards will produce more light than one that doesn't comply. Hence a compliant bulb that uses only 60 watts of energy might be equivalent (in terms of light output) to a non-compliant 100 watt bulb.

Whether an incandescent bulb would be "banned" under the new standards would depend on how many lumens of light it produces per watt of energy used. Many older incandescent bulbs waste around 90% of the energy they consume as heat rather than light and therefore would not comply. Newer, more efficient incandescent bulbs would comply.

-Bri

 

[This is The End]

I'd consider it much more justifiable if reducing energy usage is the objective, both because it doesn't infringe on my freedoms and because it's more effective. And raising electricity rates isn't the only alternative option either. We could also put an additional tax on low-efficiency bulbs. We could even use the proceeds to subsidize high-efficiency bulbs. You can create a strong incentive to switch without needing to deny options to consumers.

That (bolded) is a much better idea than the {word formerly known as ban}.
Tax the old ones, and use that to subsidize the new ones to make the price equal.

 

[This is The End]

They can't be imported either. Stores can sell any remaining stock of the non-compliant bulbs, so it wouldn't be entirely accurate to say that they can't be sold after January 2012.

OK, can't be imported as well, that makes more sense.

Wattage actually indicates the amount of energy the bulb uses, not how bright the bulb is. A 100 watt bulb meeting the new efficiency standards will produce more light than one that doesn't comply. Hence a compliant bulb that uses only 60 watts of energy might be equivalent (in terms of light output) to a non-compliant 100 watt bulb.

I'm not sure, but are you really asking what I mean by 'traditional 100 watt bulbs that have been available for over 100 years', or are you just adding some extra 'aside' info.

Whether an incandescent bulb would be "banned" under the new standards would depend on how many lumens of light it produces per watt of energy used. Many older incandescent bulbs waste around 90% of the energy they consume as heat rather than light and therefore would not comply. Newer, more efficient incandescent bulbs would comply.
-Bri

Many homes (whether they know it or not) use the bulbs to help heat areas that are heated by electric heaters that also heat by heating up a filament. Especially homes that use those types of electric heaters in northern climates. You can't say it is completely wasted energy in all cases.

 

[mhaze]

I must admit I have no idea what you're talking about here. Are you saying that because you get 60% of your electricity from nuclear that somehow your old bulbs have the same environmental impact as efficient bulbs powered by electricity from coal?

If that's what you're trying to say, then you're assuming that nuclear power has a significantly smaller environmental impact than coal. That's a matter of opinion, and folks in Russia and Japan might disagree.

Regardless, it doesn't matter whether nuclear or coal has the larger environmental impact......

So against the quantified argument I made, you are going to counter with essentially unquantifiable assertions? If in fact you have no measures, you have no problem to be concerned with.

Rather dubious is such a claim, disregarding that it was already effectively neutered by the looming threat of Jevons Paradox.

 

[mhaze]

This sounds like double speak.

Could you answer specifically, yes or no...

Will stores be allowed to sell traditional 100 Watt* incandescent light bulbs after January 1 2012 or not.

*(NOT 100 Watt 'equivalent').

If the answer is no, that sure sounds like a ban, no matter what caused it.

NO, THEY WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO SELL THEM.

Bri and Joe then argue that halogen incadescents or other products fill your needs so you should be happy blah blah blah. They dance around the "ban" by taking refuge in the energy standards which were in fact designed to ban those bulbs.

That's the part I've complained about also.

It's a textbook example of pure doubletalk.

...Many homes (whether they know it or not) use the bulbs to help heat areas that are heated by electric heaters that also heat by heating up a filament. Especially homes that use those types of electric heaters in northern climates. You can't say it is completely wasted energy in all cases.

Go back earlier in the thread and you'll see where I mentioned doing this in a room with 90 and 150 watt old style incadescent flood lights on dimmers. Part of the reasoning is heating.

Bri and Joe argue that's "bad" and they should be replaced with "good" lights. Bri suggested using a space heater so that I could use the "good" lights. Joe ignored the heating requirement because it didn't fit with his opinion set.

That's about the time I coined the phrase "Bulb Truther".

 

[DC]

That still sounds like double speak. You say they can't be manufactured, but aren't they all manufactured in China anyway? Does it also mean they can't be imported?

Again, for clarification, I am asking about traditional 100 watt light bulbs (NOT this 100 Watt equivilent stuff). The exact ones that have been in use for over 100 years.

http://75.126.159.74/ge-crystal-clear-150-watt-decorative-a21-1-pack

yes you still can get them, 100 W and 150 W.

 

[This is The End]

NO, THEY WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO SELL THEM.

I'm assuming they are hanging on to an "after they sell out of current stock" amend to the above quote as an out....

Part of the reasoning is heating.

Even if the electric heater that heats by element is more efficient (and it wouldn't be by a very large amount), you still have to consider the point source aspect. (As an example, some might like a bit of extra heat radiating around the ceiling instead of coming from a heater/vent source nearer the floor (and they might not even know they liked it until it's gone)).

Again, this (northern climate homes with electric filament heaters) is, admittedly, a fairly small percentage of all homes in the world.

Also, I would like to agree with an early poster that it is very unlikely that even 1 percent of all CFL's (in the US) are being disposed of any other way than by just tossing them in the trash. People have been told to recycle batteries (AA, AAA, etc) for years, and only a fraction of a percent are.

(Really I am not promoting continued use of old style light bulbs at all, so I would only like to focus on the, IMO, unneeded ban aspect of all of this.)

 

[This is The End]

http://75.126.159.74/ge-crystal-clear-150-watt-decorative-a21-1-pack

yes you still can get them, 100 W and 150 W.

I'm not sure, but are you confused that we are talking about after January 1 2012 and not their availability now?

(Also, from what I read here, over 100W bulbs are exempt, which seems to be a bit of a loophole. As with the above question to Joe (why can't they just put the word Outdoor on the old style bulbs), why can't they just sell a 101 Watt (old style) bulb as a way of circumventing the ban.)

 

[DC]

I'm not sure, but are you confused that we are talking about after January 1 2012 and not their availability now?

(Also, from what I read here, over 100W bulbs are exempt, which seems to be a bit of a loophole. As with the above question to Joe (why can't they just put the word Outdoor on the old style bulbs), why can't they just sell a 101 Watt (old style) bulb as a way of circumventing the ban.)

(E)* means this bulb meets Federal minimum efficiency standards.

 

[DC]

I'm assuming they are hanging on to an "after they sell out of current stock" amend to the above quote as an out....



Even if the electric heater that heats by element is more efficient (and it wouldn't be by a very large amount), you still have to consider the point source aspect. (As an example, some might like a bit of extra heat radiating around the ceiling instead of coming from a heater/vent source nearer the floor (and they might not even know they liked it until it's gone)).

Again, this (northern climate homes with electric filament heaters) is, admittedly, a fairly small percentage of all homes in the world.

Also, I would like to agree with an early poster that it is very unlikely that even 1 percent of all CFL's (in the US) are being disposed of any other way than by just tossing them in the trash. People have been told to recycle batteries (AA, AAA, etc) for years, and only a fraction of a percent are.

(Really I am not promoting continued use of old style light bulbs at all, so I would only like to focus on the, IMO, unneeded ban aspect of all of this.)

source?

i read more than 90% of lead car batteries are recycled in the USA.

also you bulbs can be brought to every Home Depot shop in the USA and they take it back for recycle, same with Ikea and other stores. so where is the problem?

 

[mhaze]

http://75.126.159.74/ge-crystal-clear-150-watt-decorative-a21-1-pack

yes you still can get them, 100 W and 150 W.

No, DC. You've just linked to an industrial bulb, of a type that is not banned. That's one nasty, headachy, harsh, don't stare at it bulb you've linked to.

No one is saying that all bulbs are banned.

We're talking about the frosted bulbs here. (in my case it was the frosted floodlight bulbs, and Joe tried to argue that reflector bulbs would serve).