Badmouthing the Middle Ages

Not really. A thing doesn't necessary belong to the dark ages just because it doesn't belong to the 21st century. Would you have accepted a statement of "crossbows belong to the bronze age, not the 21st century" as correct? Of course not. Crossbows weren't around in the bronze age any more than homeopathy was around in the dark ages.

Even using the "barbaric, unenlightened" meaning of the term "the dark ages" the statement isn't valid, because homeopathy isn't the result of unenlightened superstition but of pseudo-science.

Homeopathy belongs primarily to the 19th and 20th century, alongside a number of similar medical "systems" based on wishful thinking and lofty theorisation rather than on actual effect. To claim it belongs to the dark ages serves not only to give a false impression of that period of European history, but also gives a distorted view of current times. Let's not confuse what is with what should be.

We'll have to disagree. Homeopathy was (and is) a type of sympathetic magic so the dark ages (being a time when the world view was sympathetic to sympathetic magic) is an appropriate period to say it belonged to. Homeopathy was developed in a time when its primary underpinnings (spells) had already been discarded by the sciences. Homeopathy was anachronistic when it was invented!
 
Homeopathy was (and is) a type of sympathetic magic so the dark ages (being a time when the world view was sympathetic to sympathetic magic) is an appropriate period to say it belonged to.

I understand your comparison of homeopathy to sympathetic magic, but on what basis do you think the medieval worldview was especially sympathetic to sympathetic magic relative to, say, now?
 
I understand your comparison of homeopathy to sympathetic magic, but on what basis do you think the medieval worldview was especially sympathetic to sympathetic magic relative to, say, now?

Because that was the understanding of the world around them at the time, that cannot be said for today. Very few people believe that the aspirin cures the headache because the pharmacist has said a spell over it.
 
Because that was the understanding of the world around them at the time, that cannot be said for today.

That's really just a restatement of the proposition, isn't it? In some sense, the popularity of homeopathy is prima facie evidence that the 21st century worldview - albeit not yours or mine individually - is sympathetic to such things. But is your statement that "the understanding of the world around them" in the Middle Ages was the way you've described it a conclusion or an assumption? What are you basing it on?

I wonder in passing whether our notion of the "21st-century worldview" is a broadly accurate reflection of the entire human race at present.


Very few people believe that the aspirin cures the headache because the pharmacist has said a spell over it.

They most certainly do, in a manner of speaking. Didn't you suggest a moment ago that this is more or less what homeopathy is all about?

I thought we'd established that spells, magic and such were not part of standard medieval medical theory.

When you point out that "Homeopathy was developed in a time when its primary underpinnings (spells) had already been discarded by the sciences", I think that's arguably true of the Middle Ages as well. Do you think the Scholastics based their science on spells?
 
That's really just a restatement of the proposition, isn't it? In some sense, the popularity of homeopathy is prima facie evidence that the 21st century worldview - albeit not yours or mine individually - is sympathetic to such things. But is your statement that "the understanding of the world around them" in the Middle Ages was the way you've described it a conclusion or an assumption? What are you basing it on?

And that is exactly what Randi was commenting on! That such beliefs don't belong in the 21st century, that we have made so many advances in understanding the world - that if someone believes in this they are employing a mindset much more akin to the mindset that existed in the dark ages rather then in an age where anti-antibiotics, chemotherapy, heart transplants, anti-histamines, jet planes, computers, men walking on the moon all exist because that mindset was proved to be inaccurate in describing the real world.
I wonder in passing whether our notion of the "21st-century worldview" is a broadly accurate reflection of the entire human race at present.

Well unless you show me that the vast majority of people with access to Randi's commentaries believe that the Internet works because someone casts a spell on the wires then again his comment was relevant to the audience. Also as I mentioned earlier our view of the "Dark ages" is a very eurocentric view of the world so all we can do is compare like with like - so we aren't comparing the state of say the great Kingdoms of northern Africa of the time to the state of northern African countries today when we compare something to the dark ages.

They most certainly do, in a manner of speaking. Didn't you suggest a moment ago that this is more or less what homeopathy is all about?

Which is why Randi's comment was quite accurate.



I thought we'd established that spells, magic and such were not part of standard medieval medical theory.

Nope we both just asserted our beliefs about that. (My belief is based on the fact that the belief in (as one example) witchcraft was prevalent.)

When you point out that "Homeopathy was developed in a time when its primary underpinnings (spells) had already been discarded by the sciences", I think that's arguably true of the Middle Ages as well. Do you think the Scholastics based their science on spells?

Which has no relevance to what I initially described as "where superstition and faith defined the world view of the majority of the people."

To date all you have done, at best is argued that a certain stereotypical understanding of the dark ages may be wrong. What you haven't done is show that Randi's comment, given the context, was inappropriate, was broadly inaccurate and so on and did not convey the point he wanted to make.
 
Regardless of its earliest forms, [trepanation] was still used in the Middle Ages as a treatment for madness.

This is true, but with some important caveats, according to the article "Insanity, Treatment of" in the Dictionary of the Middle Ages.

First, when mental patients in the care of medieval doctors were trepanned, it had nothing to do with "letting demons out" of their heads, as you suggested in an earlier post. According to the DMA, "Insanity may have been characterized by different names and attributed to various causes during the Middle Ages, but it was evidently recognized as a disease." Medieval physicians expressly rejected supernatural etiologies of mental illness, even if sometimes they would assent, as a last resort, to allowing their patients to be treated with "folk/empirical recipes and ... magical rites and incantations. They often justified this by adding [in their therapeutic accounts], 'so that something may be done' when purely human attempts proved futile."

Interestingly, although such desperate measures sometimes involved appeals to religious powers, according to the DMA, "Contrary to modern assumption, these did not consist of exorcisms[.]"

Next, the article indicates that trepanning was not only viewed as drastic, but also suggests that it was done only where head trauma was diagnosed as the cause of mental disorder or disruption: "trepanation [was performed] to drain blood that had accumulated after a blow to the head". And as we know from the earlier BBC article, medieval trepanation was at least sometimes a successful and even life-saving operation. Indeed, the purposes for which trepanation seems generally to have been used in the Middle Ages are essentially the same purposes for which it is still used today.

No demons there.


Darat said:
And that is exactly what Randi was commenting on! That such beliefs don't belong in the 21st century, that we have made so many advances in understanding the world - that if someone believes in this they are employing a mindset much more akin to the mindset that existed in the dark ages rather then in an age where anti-antibiotics, chemotherapy, heart transplants, anti-histamines, jet planes, computers, men walking on the moon all exist because that mindset was proved to be inaccurate in describing the real world.

For the sake of accuracy, Randi used the term "Middle Ages" rather than "Dark Ages" (this time, at least). Recall that the basic mindset (rational inquiry, scientific method, etc.) that gave rise to all those things arose during the Middle Ages, not the modern era, as the modern historians I've cited here and elsewhere have pointed out. Obviously, the specific material advances you're referring to came later. However, since that mindset appears to share the stage with quackery to a very great extent in the 21st century, it is hardly surprising to observe that it has done so since the Middle Ages and before. That doesn't mean that a given form of quackery belongs in the Middle Ages.

What is an "anti-antibiotic"?


Darat said:
Well unless you show me that the vast majority of people with access to Randi's commentaries believe that the Internet works because someone casts a spell on the wires then again his comment was relevant to the audience.

I hope few people with access to Randi's commentaries believe that, although I would venture to guess that, roughly speaking, half or more of them believe in their horoscopes or in psychics. But really, what is the relevance of believing that the Internet works because someone casts a spell on the wires? Are you suggesting, for example, that medieval people tended to believe that the tools they used worked because someone had enchanted the tools?


Darat said:
Which is why Randi's comment was quite accurate.

It means your comment was inaccurate, doesn't it? People who buy homeopathic remedies do kind of believe - in a manner of speaking - that they work because the homeopath used sympathetic magic.


Darat said:
Nope we both just asserted our beliefs about [whether that spells, magic and such were part of standard medieval medical theory].

OK. I decided to hit the books again, particularly since no one else seems to want to do it.

In the rather lengthy DMA encyclopedia entry on medieval medicine ("Medicine, History of", as well as a companion piece on Byzantine medicine), I searched in vain for any reference to spells, demons, or anything of that sort. The closest thing to superstition in the customary sense was a couple of references to the occasional influence of astrology.

We learn a few interesting facts about the state of the medical art in the Middle Ages:

Next to the influence of Hippocrates and Galen, that of Alexander of Tralles was the greatest in the Middle Ages in both the East and the West. His writings were translated into Syriac, Arabic, Hebrew, and Latin. His Twelve Books on Medicine has been described as a masterpiece and became a required textbook at the University of Paris in the High Middle Ages. He was more original than his predecessors and maintained an independent judgment based on great learning and personal observation. He advised that "choice of drugs should be guided by reason but even more by experiment."

Paul of Aegina ... is the author of a [7th century!] seven-book encyclopedia, which provides information on surgery, pediatrics, lung diseases, gout, sclerosis of the kidneys, encephalitis, and other illnesses. His book on surgery was a prescribed textbook at the University of Paris for many years. He wrote on catheterization, tracheotomy, excision of tonsils, nasal polyps, lithotomy, hemorrhoidectomy, and several other forms of surgery. He had extracted cataracts and had operated for trichiasis, cysts, and staphyloma, among other maladies. His work, too, was translated into Arabic and had a considerable influence on Arabic medicine, especially in the areas of gynecology and surgery.

According to the DMA, even before the twelfth century, Western physicians had a "confirmed ... belief" that "medicine should be studied as a rational system with close ties to [natural] philosophy, grounded in logical order and susceptible of methodological investigation."

As I suggested earlier, the central concepts of medieval medical theory were pretty far removed from magic or supernaturalism:

If we read through the heavily schematic Isagoge, it will serve us as an introduction to Galenic medical theory, as it did so many students in the Middle Ages. We learn first about the res naturales, whose normalcy constitutes health: the four elements, the four primary qualities; the four humors or bodily fluids ... These "things natural" provide the basis for understanding the physiological and psychological activity of the body, and thus health: Every body, indeed every member of the body, has its own normal balance or proper temperament of qualities and humors, and illness arises when imbalance is so great as to distort function. The six nonnaturals, of which we learn next, are the cases external to the body that we or the physician can manipulate to preserve or sometimes to restore health: air, food and drink, excretion, exercise, sleep, and the emotions. Finally we learn of pathology: of disease, its causes and consequences (etiology and semiotics) - the res contra naturam. Diseases are classified sometimes by the part of the body they affect, sometimes by the symptoms they manifest, and sometimes by their supposed cause.

... [T]he Isagoge summarizes medical practice for the beginning student: "The practice of medicine deals with the right ordering of the nonnaturals, with giving of drugs, and of surgery" - to be essayed in that order, no doubt, by the consulting physician; of these the administration of drugs, mostly botanical, seems to have dominated medical practice.

So, as I suggested earlier, it was humoralism, not magic, that provided the underpinnings of medical practice in the Middle Ages (the article "Humoralism" by medical historian Vivian Nutton in Volume 1 of the Companion Encyclopedia of the History of Medicine confirms that "Historically, humoralism formed the basis for the Western tradition of medicine down to the nineteenth century.") Medieval medical treatments were primarily centered around manipulation of diet and regimen on the one hand, and pharmaceutical therapy on the other. Conspicuously absent (at least, from the standpoint of modern historical myths) were magical rituals or appeals to the supernatural.

The topic of humoralism brings me to another point I wanted to make: medieval medical practitioners, regardless of their therapeutic skill or effectiveness, were overwhelmingly allopaths. If for no other reason than this, it is problematic to assert that homeopathy "belongs" in the Middle Ages, for homeopathic theory would have clashed with the prevailing medical theories of the day. Indeed, it is hard to imagine homeopathy gaining any significant foothold prior to the theoretical speculations of Paracelsus in the 16th century. Thus, there is a better case for saying that homeopathy belongs in the Renaissance than for saying it belongs in the Middle Ages.

Surgery, as the earlier-cited medieval textbook points out, was the third area of medical practice. The DMA notes:

The branch of thirteenth-century medicine that has received most praise for its empirical and "progressive" quality is surgery ... The first medieval compilation on the subject was the so-called Bamberg Surgery of the early twelfth century...; it was supplanted by the text of Roger Frugardi, fifty years later, which in Guido d'Arezzo's rearrangement of 1170 dealt with certain operations, the treatment of wounds, fractures, and dislocations in a systematic and widely useful fashion... The thirteenth century surgical literature is plainly marked by the immediacy of direct experience, on the battlefield or in urban practice, which unquestionably led to some concrete advances.

The article goes on to assert that medieval people under the care of a doctor "were probably healthier than others, relatively speaking; their therapy was generally moderate and sensible and did not go to the heroic extremes of, say, the early nineteenth-century[.]" Here, I suspect the author may have phlebotomy in mind: it was not uncommon for late eighteenth- and early nineteenth-century patients to be bled literally to death by their doctors, at the height of the medical establishment's love affair with phlebotomy. The DMA suggests that this would have occurred rarely in the Middle Ages.

By the way, would you be inclined to say that people relying on the care of a homeopath are "probably healthier than others" or that "their therapy is sensible"? If not, then that's another reason for concluding that homeopathy would be out of place in the context of medieval medical practice.


Darat said:
Which has no relevance to what I initially described as "where superstition and faith defined the world view of the majority of the people."

Then what exactly did you intend by saying that "Homeopathy was developed in a time when its primary underpinnings (spells) had already been discarded by the sciences"? Are you suggesting that, say, the underpinnings of the sciences of the 13th century included spells?

Also, unless I am completely misinterpreting you, you are attempting to relate the "historical appropriateness" of homeopathy to a prevailing worldview that is defined by faith and/or superstition. Have you considered whether the currently growing popularity of homeopathy might be due to the fact that the 21st-century worldview has an awful lot of faith and/or superstition in it? Yours doesn't, mine doesn't, and Randi's doesn't, of course, but perhaps it's a bit presumptuous to characterize the spirit of the age by reference only to our own worldviews. Maybe we're the ones who are a bit out of step with many of our contemporaries.
 
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They were also a time of brutality and terribly harmful superstitions ...snip... where superstition and faith defined the world view of the majority of the people.

And that differs how from now, exactly? ;)
 
And that differs how from now, exactly? ;)

Seriously, though - add that to the list of questions posed and not yet answered here (to the extent it wasn't already on the list in one form or another).
 
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Seriously, though - add that to the list of questions posed and not yet answered here (to the extent it wasn't already on the list in one form or another).

drfrank said:
And that differs how from now, exactly? ;)

Incorrect ceo_esq I explained my use of that phrase in my first reply to you (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1372011#post1372011) - a post that I don't think you responded to.

(ETA)

And your previous posts and citations support my original point in this thread. If you wish to somehow claim that the beliefs prevalent in those times were not magical (as I have been using the term) your last posts do not support your claim.
 
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Incorrect ceo_esq I explained my use of that phrase in my first reply to you (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1372011#post1372011) - a post that I don't think you responded to.

I'm sorry. I don't see any non-rhetorical question in that post that called for a direct answer in the same sense as the other questions to which I was referring. However, while I didn't explicitly reply to that post, I do believe that many of my comments have been more or less directly responsive to the points you made in it. Still, lest I be accused of such a lapse again, I'll offer a few more remarks on that post in particular.

Darat said:
People on the whole do not believe that the crops grow because of the prayers, farmers today understand the underlying principles of why you need to crop rotate (e.g. what actually is exhausted/concentrated in a field),

I have seen no evidence adduced that medieval people favored superstitious views of why crops grew. Even if he did not have nearly as much data about, say, how crop rotation works, I daresay the medieval farmer understood that it operated through natural causes. Why do you think he would not have had a notion of the causality of it that basically corresponded to the same type of causality (if a much less detailed one) a modern person associates with crop rotation?


Darat said:
people don't believe that imps and demons are causing illness in their family,

And you say I haven't addressed this post! At any rate, I daresay we agree on the truth of the following statement: In the modern era, some people (consciously or, as in the case of homeopathy, perhaps unconsciously) commingle the supernatural and the natural in their practical understandings of disease and medicine; probably most do not; and in particular medical science doesn't.

Now I'm inclined to think, on the basis of some of the readings I cited earlier and others, to think that in the medieval era, it was also substantially true that some people commingled the supernatural and the natural in their practical understandings of disease and medicine; probably most did not; and in particular medical science didn't. What evidence do you have that this basic assessment is wrong, other than that it doesn't correspond to your received ideas about the Middle Ages?

When it comes down to it, you seem to me to be attributing beliefs, practices and understandings to medieval folks that look for all the world like unsupported, popular, modern assumptions.


Darat said:
Also I think it is especially an excellent age if you want to point out that a specific treatment is nothing more then sympathetic magic that belongs to a long ago time e.g. to a time when superstition underlaid the thinking about treatment of disease and illness. It is very apt to mention that something like homeopathy (despite only being 200 years old) is in fact a throwback to the typical "dark ages/middle ages/medieval" mindset about treating disease and illness.

Again, pending a serious challenge to the findings I presented earlier, I am inclined to view your foregoing comments (as they apply to the medieval treatment of illness) as having been seriously undermined.

Why do you keep insisting that medieval allopathy, a collection of basically non-superstitious medical practices and theories, would have provided an especially congenial context for modern homeopathy?


Darat said:
If you wish to somehow claim that the beliefs prevalent in those times were not magical (as I have been using the term) your last posts do not support your claim.

I'm disputing your unsupported claim about the prevalent beliefs. Yet I suppose I'm having trouble understanding how you're using the term magical. Almost every time you give an example (people believing that crops grow by magic; people using magic to treat disease), it seems to be something that we have no evidence was characteristic of the Middle Ages. And if we encounter difficulty in distinguishing the Middle Ages from the modern era on the limited criteria you prescribe, then don't have a very strong basis for saying that something appearing in one actually is much better suited to the other.
 

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