Bad ideas in war

[jimbob]

The round was only so expensive because the Z and its gun were canceled, meaning only a few rounds were ever procured. Cost per unit would have gone down if the USN had gone on to make bulk orders. There's a lot not to like about the Zumwalt program, without making stuff up.

Except that they were always good ETA: going to be more like missiles than shells and they were being used because the USN had been told not that it needed to provide fire support for shore actions (reasonable) but that it had to provide gunfire support which presupposes the solution.

 

[dudalb]

Yes, that's what I meant by the 100km advance

I hadn't considered the drop zone location as well.

And that the 100 KM advance was to be made along a narrow road little space for vehicular off road movement without the tanks bogging down in the soil was also not a work of genius.
But one real bad thing about Market Garden is that the troops used for it were diverted from the job of opening up the Port of Antwerp.

 

[kookbreaker]

The harshness of the Treaty of Versailles comes to mind (if that fits under the terms of "war" for this thread...maybe not as it wasn't about things happening in a war itself).

I think we've covered this. The treaty wasn't as bad as some claim. Especially when compared to the Brest-Litovsk treaty some months earlier that was inflicted on the new Soviet state.

 

[erwinl]

And that the 100 KM advance was to be made along a narrow road little space for vehicular off road movement without the tanks bogging down in the soil was also not a work of genius.
But one real bad thing about Market Garden is that the troops used for it were diverted from the job of opening up the Port of Antwerp.

And yet.
If the Nijmegen bridge had been captured by the Americans on the 17th, the same way Frost did in Arnhem, then the tanks and infantry of XXX corps could have driven north towards Arnhem and link up with Frost.

Now, there's no telling if this would have been enough to defeat the Germans in Arnhem, but for XXX corps to have to first start capturing the Nijmegen bridge did not help with attaining success.

 

[dellarte]

Deadline Gallipoli

The attempt by Britain and France (with the blessing of Russia) to colonize the Turkiye remnant of the Ottoman Empire. The ANZACS were expendable.
.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Is that comment a joke?

Colonise?

They joined the war on the side of the German Empire, Austria-Hungary and Bulgaria.

 

[jimbob]

Is that a joke?

Well the whole Dardanelles campaign was a bad idea

 

[Andy_Ross]

Not really, it was just badly executed.

On it's face, opening the Dardanelles and Bosporus would be a good strategic move.

 

[jimbob]

Not really, it was just badly executed.

On it's face, opening the Dardanelles and Bosporus would be a good strategic move.

Yes but how?

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

My favorite vignette from Market Garden:

Boats are loaded and being paddled madly across the river, under fire. One soldier is repeating over and over again, "Hail, Mary, full of grace" all the way across. When they make it to the other side one sargeant ask "why did you keep repeating that one phrase so much?"

"It's the only prayer I could remember."
"Well, Padre, I hope you do better soon, we have three more river crossings to make."

 

[jimbob]

Up to about 15 years ago, the local barber was a veteran from Market Garden. His shop was like a time capsule, selling both carbolic soap and brylcream. Also he apologised for the high price of a haircut for me as a non pensioner. It was £3 as opposed to £2.50, which was way lower than I expected.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Stanley Hollis who won a VC on D- Day was the Landlord of the Hollywell View pub in Liverton Mines well in to the 1970s. It's just over the hill from where I grew up, My grandad knew him and used to drink in there.

 

[Spektator]

In 1943 the USS O'Bannon sank a Japanese submarine after pelting it with potatoes. It was a bad idea, but dumb luck paid off.

 

[Andy_Ross]

There was a bit more to it than that

 

[Klimax]

In 1943 the USS O'Bannon sank a Japanese submarine after pelting it with potatoes. It was a bad idea, but dumb luck paid off.

Quick search shows, that sailors allegedly pelted it with potatoes, but sinking was done by guns days later. (Multiple ships including USS O'Bannon)

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

"Losing", bad idea.

 

[W.D.Clinger]

"Losing", bad idea.

But surprisingly popular. An idea adopted by almost half of combatants. Arguably, well over half.

 

[Helen]

But surprisingly popular. An idea adopted by almost half of combatants. Arguably, well over half.

Yeah, what's up with that? It's like death; seems everyone is doing it these days. I don't see the appeal of either, personally. It also seems as if some kind of Venn diagram overlap thingy is going on there.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

"Attention! It has come to the CO's attention that men are dying and not laying down. This makes them impossible to tell from the real dead troops.

Henceforth any enlisted to dies and does NOT lay down will be executed."

 

[Planigale]

I have a family Market Garden anecdote. One of my great uncles was a paratrooper and was dropped at Arnhem (survived and captured). His brother was attached to SHAEF; his job was to give Enigma decrypts to Eisenhower; because Enigma was UK eyes only there needed to be a Royal Signals unit attached to SHAEF to handle Enigma. Because of Enigma decrypts* he was aware that his brother was about to be dropped into an area with a large number of German units who were aware that something like Market Garden might be attempted. Montgomery disbelieved 'the signals intelligence' (presumably not being aware of the true nature of enigma), Eisenhower demurred from interfering with a British operation. So one brother knew the other was going in to what was likely a disaster.**

What was particularly poignant was the brother who was a paratrooper had been dropped at operation Torch, captured and ended up in a prison camp in Italy escaped and had just rejoined his regiment, and was then dropped and captured again. The other brother had been exempt from conscription because of civilian occupation, but joined up because after Torch his brother was posted MIA believed killed.

*He said his unit was perhaps the most knowledgeable about the war as they handled all the Enigma (and similar) UK intelligence going to Eisenhower. They had to personally hand the decrypts to Eisenhower's office, and frequently had to refuse Senior American officers who offered to be intermediates.

**There was also a policy that any Enigma intelligence utilised had to be sourced to a non-Enigma origin. So if Enigma revealed a German unit to be operating somewhere, then there had to be a non-enigma source before it could be utilised, so a reconnaissance flight might be sent out, or signals intelligence might focus on a particular area. So Enigma intelligence on German units in Arnhem would have to have been attributable to Sig Int and photoreconnaissance to be actioned; only the classification that this was Enigma level intelligence revealed its true source.