Back to the big issues ...

[joobz]

(Since I already complained that joobz comment was an attempt to derailing this thread and nothing was done about that, I will assume it's ok to discuss this in more detail).

Is that what I was doing? I thought I was making fun of the multiple "obama sucks" threads that you started.

The fact is Obama was not correct when he said "we have inherited an economic crisis as deep and dire as any since the days of the Great Depression" back on February 5th.

Which is true.

At the time he made that statement, this recession was not worse than the one in 1981-82 (or the one in the mid 70s) on many, many levels.

which is not true. (you seem to enjoy ignoring the credit market problems)

I proved this on the thread where this was discussed (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135124) by comparing specific figures (unemployment rate, inflation rate, the delta in real GDP, the delta in industrial production, the 30 year mortgage rate, and the "misery index").
And neither you or joobz ever contested any of those figures in that thread.

Oh but we did and multiple people did. In that thread and others. You have only recently retreated to the "But it wasn't bad when he said it was bad" argument.

And as pointed out previously, the February 27th issue of the leftist New York Times supported my assertion. It said (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/28/business/economy/28recession.html?_r=1) "Current conditions are not even as poor as during the twin recessions of the 1980s, when unemployment exceeded 10 percent".

See, you continue to dishonestly quote mine:
Here's the full quote
"Current conditions are not even as poor as during the twin recessions of the 1980s, when unemployment exceeded 10 percent, though many experts assert this downturn is on track to be significantly worse. "

Why do you think they say that? perhaps it's because they are aware of the other mitigating factors involved (credit crisis, the toxic assets, GM collapsing..)

And, as I've pointed out previously on this forum, on January 11th Obama also lied about the economy when he stated to ABCNews (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a3YMkstD3JzA ) that "Whether it’s retail sales, manufacturing, all of the indicators show that we are in the worst recession since the Great Depression". That statement was simply not true at that time and it's still not true. It's a LIE.

And Obama was right. Your only defense is a context ignorant reality.

Plain and simple ... Obama was a liar. He lied in order to sell his stimulus/porkulus agenda. And you bought the lie. And here you are trying to defend the lie ... with a lie. Like I said to joobz, how appropriate.

Well, Obama's human and I'm sure he's lied. About the economy? nope.

And I hope that everyone notices that neither you or anyone else on this thread appears to want to discuss the very important issues mentioned in the OP. You have your heads in the sand. You are in obvious denial. And I think the reason is quite partisan in nature.

I'd be happy to discuss the deficit that I'm actually very concerned about. But I can't do it with someone who ignores reality.

 

[BeAChooser]

He did not claim the then-current economy was the worst we'd seen since the Great Depression

Yes he did. As I pointed out, in January he said "Whether it’s retail sales, manufacturing, all of the indicators show that we are in the worst recession since the Great Depression". And that was simply untrue at the time. And in February when he called it a crisis as deep and dire as any since the depression, it was NOT. The fact is that the indicators then and now are less dire than during the 1981-82 recession. Only the length of the contraction is now worse ... and that probably wouldn't be the case if the government (both Bush and Obama) hadn't intervened creating such indecision in the business world. The verifiable truth is that the recession was not as deep or dire, and still is not, as the 1981 recession. Sorry, but the facts clearly show that Obama's statement was a deliberate mischaracterization of the economic situation in order to promote his wasteful and mostly unnecessary socialist spending packages. Historical data shows that if you do just the opposite of what Obama (and Bush) have done, recessions and depressions tend to be much shorter.

 

[BeAChooser]

Originally Posted by BeAChooser
I proved this on the thread where this was discussed (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135124) by comparing specific figures (unemployment rate, inflation rate, the delta in real GDP, the delta in industrial production, the 30 year mortgage rate, and the "misery index").
And neither you or joobz ever contested any of those figures in that thread.

Oh but we did and multiple people did.

LIAR. And all that people need do to verify that you are a liar is go back and read that thread. You make this too easy, joobz.

Why do you think they say that? perhaps it's because they are aware of the other mitigating factors involved (credit crisis, the toxic assets, GM collapsing..)

Obama solve any of those problems yet, joobz?

I'd be happy to discuss the deficit that I'm actually very concerned about.

Then why don't you just do it. Stop spinning ... stop throwing out derails ... just address the numbers cited in the OP article. Tell us why you are ok with Obama saddling all tax paying American families with a new $163,000 tax bill. Or are you still afraid to even touch that subject, joobz?

 

[joobz]

LIAR. And all that people need do to verify that you are a liar is go back and read that thread. You make this too easy, joobz.

I do make it very easy. Being right, has that advantage.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4423532#post4423532
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4431804#post4431804
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4431776#post4431776
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4432788#post4432788

Obama solve any of those problems yet, joobz?

Then why don't you just do it. Stop spinning ... stop throwing out derails ... just address the numbers cited in the OP article. Tell us why you are ok with Obama saddling all tax paying American families with a new $163,000 tax bill. Or are you still afraid to even touch that subject, joobz?

Tell you the truth, I do not know if it would have been better or worse if we did nothing.
All I can do is compare The trustworthiness of what Obama say to evaluate the reliability of their conclusions..

Obama said economic crisis is worse than anything since the great depression. You said it wasn't.
He was right.
You were wrong.

You claimed Obama misread a speech from a teleprompter.
You were wrong.

You insinuated that people who supported Obama think there was no such thing as terrorism.
You were wrong.

You tell me who I should trust? Wait, don't bother.

 

[BeAChooser]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4423532#post4423532

This post doesn't mention ANY of the many recession measurements I noted. By the way, has Obama solved the credit crunch yet?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4431804#post4431804

gdnp only succeeded in showing that job losses were indeed below the 1981 recession values ... not worse as Obama tried to suggest. Even the NY Times recognizes that the current national unemployment rate is still well the value reached during the 1981-82 recession. And you might notice in that figure that this recession also doesn't have the longest contraction as is currently being claimed. Looks like the 2001 recession has that record.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4431776#post4431776

I'm sorry, you will have to tell us what parameter you think was discussed in this post. I see no mention of unemployment rate, inflation rate, the delta in real GDP, the delta in industrial production, the 30 year mortgage rate, or the "misery index".

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4432788#post4432788

Again, no mention of any of those parameters. Just some vague claim about the stock market. But as I pointed out on that thread, "If folks would be calm and let the system work as it has in the past, then in a year or two most stock prices would be back to where they were. At least those stocks that were based on real products rather than just speculation. But democrats are impatient. They demand change. Solutions now. So they sell their devalued stocks (even the good ones) and make the losses real. Stupid. Why is that my problem? For the same reason that their losing houses because they took out risky loans is my problem?"

Originally Posted by BeAChooser
Obama solve any of those problems yet, joobz?

Well has he, joobz?

Tell you the truth, I do not know if it would have been better or worse if we did nothing.

Well to be honest, I think I do. The historical record clearly shows that in cases where the government did nothing, or even did the opposite of what Obama is doing, recovery times were shorter than the average. Sometimes considerably shorter. And all that data has been provided to you folks several times now but you simply ignore it and continue to regurgitate your lies. Oh well.

Obama said economic crisis is worse than anything since the great depression. You said it wasn't.
He was right.
You were wrong.

And yet the unemployment rate, inflation rate, the delta in real GDP, the delta in industrial production, the 30 year mortgage rate, and the "misery index" were all higher in the 1981-82 recession than now. Go figure.

And I see you still don't want to talk about the national debt and what deficits will be the next 10 years. The OP. Still in hiding. Still trying to derail this thread.

 

[joobz]

This post doesn't mention ANY of the many recession measurements I noted. By the way, has Obama solved the credit crunch yet?

But the indicators don't agree with you that you pointed out...
Oh wait, you think the absolute values in the charts were relevant and not the trends. Oops on you.

Originally Posted by BeAChooser
Obama solve any of those problems yet, joobz?


Well has he, joobz?

This question is pure partisan hackery.
If the answer's yes, you'll claim it's inspite of him.
If the answer's no, you'll claim that he did nothing.

The honest answer is that things are looking not much better. Although some seem to think that the rate of the downturn is decreasing, I do not know.

 

[BeAChooser]

But the indicators don't agree with you that you pointed out...

Oh wait, you think the absolute values in the charts were relevant and not the trends. Oops on you.

Obama didn't mention trends in those statements. He stated the recession was ALREADY worse than any since the Great Depression. And that simply wasn't true. And it's still not true. On multiple levels (those indicators I mention that you simply ignored), the current recession is still not as bad as that in 1981-82. And what do you know? Very little of the stimulus money has been spent so it couldn't have done much stimulating. Yet the recession is TRENDING towards the positive. Here, this from an Associate Press article I found in my local paper today:

Brunt of recession may be over, but no growth yet

By Jeannine Aversa

The Associated Press

Washington - At least after a nerve-racking six-month descent, the economy appears to be leveling off. ... snip ... Stock investors, shoppers and home buyers are less jittery. Once-frozen credit markets are slowly thawing. And economic indicators that had been going from bad to worse are showing signs of stabilizing - though still at distressed levels. ... snip ... For now, said Brian Bethune, economist at the IHS Global Insight, "I think we can say we've gone through the most terrible part of the recession."

So do we really need to spend all that *stimulus/pork* money that Obama and the democrats stole from us?

 

[Corsair 115]

Stop insulting monsters!

Indeed! Godzilla was pretty cool as monsters go. Sure, he stomped Tokyo flat a few times, but he also saved Japan from a host truly nasty, vile monsters. So it kind of comes out even in the end.