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Ayn Rand

I just IMDB-ed it. Looks interesting, especially since my daughter starts 7th grade next year.

Just like TragicMonkey said... Skip "Welcome to the Dollhouse"... but check out "Mean Girls". They are both good, but I would rather my 6th grade daughter see the latter than the former. (Though it may not be an issue with my daughter, who I am trying to make sure is NOT the bully! Well, no... she is the weird girl who always wears black, actually reads, checks out Japanese language tapes from the library and we get along when the voices in her head talk to the voices in my head!).
 
This is jsut an opinion.

I have just finished reading Atlas Shrugged and it has to be the worst, most poorly written idealogically driven book i have read since reading the communist manifesto.

Was Rand some kind of nazi idealogist or something?

because that is the impression I have formed of them after reading this book.

I don't agree! I think the communist manifesto is better written: it's much shorter, you know?
 
Yeah, I'm sure.

'Tis a pity that you and Atlas Shrugged didn't have a good encounter.

Perhaps its the reader rather than the book.

Perhaps you should bring more to the encounter with the book than you have.

Nah, that's not it. The book's crap. That simple.


Oh by the way, Ayn Rand and, in particular, Ayn Rand's writing, happen to be one of my pet peeves. I even started a thread making fun of her: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40167&highlight=Rand
 
I have to confess I only watched "The Fountainhead". She should have called it "The Mountainhead". The film has aged so much, what was modern and groundbreaking, according to her, was just a way to save money by cutting out the things that attract people to a design. Variety, skill, patterns and diversity. The types of buildings she treated with such derision in the film, like the Chrysler building, are now treated with respect. There's nothing inherently wrong with the buildings she idolised, but to think that they were the pinnacle of human achievement is ridiculous.
 
Well, Moliere, I'm with you and for the same reasons.

Hate to say it folks, but the negative comments that I've read in this thread seem the result of shallow reading or shallow minds.

Neither of which is worthy of you.

Read her work or don't - it doesn't matter to me.

My favorite of her books is Atlas Shrugged, and I find the story, characters, and philosophy magnificent. Her writing style isn't always my favorite, but that doesn't get in the way of the rest of it for me.

Is it too long? No. Grow up and read.

Educate us, then. What is it we are missing?
 
My nominations for other books worse than Rands:

The Wealth of Nations - Adam smith
Das Kapital - Karl Marx

They were close to being as dull as Atlas Shrugged.
 
My nominations for other books worse than Rands:

The Wealth of Nations - Adam smith
Das Kapital - Karl Marx

They were close to being as dull as Atlas Shrugged.
But who would win in a fight, Marx or Rand?

My money's on Ayn Rand just for that speed-freak never say die approach.
 
Tom Paine and JS Mill would beat Rand with Hobbes a close second.
 
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My nominations for other books worse than Rands:

The Wealth of Nations - Adam smith
Das Kapital - Karl Marx

They were close to being as dull as Atlas Shrugged.

I can come up with dozens of books that are not only "as dull as Atlas Shrugged," but even duller. I've got one on my shelf right now -- it's called The Differential Cryptanalysis of the Data Encryption System (by Biham and Shamir). And Kohler's Bibliography of Quantitative Linguistics is duller yet, and don't get me started on the Oxford English Dictionary.

A key point that seems to be being missed is that Atlas Shrugged is a novel, while Wealth, Kapital, and Differential Cryptanalysis are at least ostensibly non-fiction books written to analyze the real world from a factual perspective. One of the key problems with Atlas is that the characters and situations are totally unrealistic making it less a novel than a fable or a fairy tale, while at the same time it lacks all the interesting elements that make fables worth reading. Furthermore, the utter unrealism acts to undercut any moral lesson to be learned from the book, since it's difficult for a non-indoctrinated person to believe that there is any causal connection between the states of mind she portrays so badly and the later effects.

Furthermore, her characters do a great job of not exemplifying the virtues she preaches -- as Skeptic pointed out, her heroic characters are not Objectivists, but Platonists or Kantians.

As a novel, Atlas fails because it sucks. As a sociological or political analysis, Atlas fails because it has no discernable factual basis. And as a work of philosophy, Atlas fails because it's doesn't present and argue with any competence towards any sensible position.

On the other hand, it does a great job of keeping the rest of the books on my shelf from falling over. But there are much easier ways to produce bookends.
 
"On the other hand, it does a great job of keeping the rest of the books on my shelf from falling over. But there are much easier ways to produce bookends."

Thats what my copy of Kapital does very well too, at the other hand I have another tediously dull book propping up the Others, Lord of the Rings, what a pile of rubbish that is.
 
My nominations for other books worse than Rands:

The Wealth of Nations - Adam smith
Das Kapital - Karl Marx

They were close to being as dull as Atlas Shrugged.

But neither books are fiction, as pointed out above. So, let me suggest, based on reviews alone as I haven't read it, Robert Jordan's Crossroads of twilight as one of the dullest fiction books ever.
 
But neither books are fiction, as pointed out above. So, let me suggest, based on reviews alone as I haven't read it, Robert Jordan's Crossroads of twilight as one of the dullest fiction books ever.

But how many people base their life philosophy on that book?
 
As entertainment, Rand's writings are far inferior to Kinky Friedman's; as commentary, they are surpassed by Pratchett; and as philosophy, they cannot hold a candle to Seuss.
 
Sounds like 90% of the people on this forum. Show me some threads of people that were presented with an opposing argument and changed their viewpoint. (see my old challenge on this subject: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39493) I'm pretty sure most people come here with a set opinion and just want to troll each other's threads.

Well, start by reading the one you linked to. My answer is in there.

Just in time. Its been at least 3-4 posts since someone threw out yet another strawman.

I already said I know next to nothing about her formal philosophy. I'm not trying to erect scarecrows, I'm asking questions.

Just for the record, since Rand held the individual as the ideal it would be contradictory to enslave another for your happiness.
Why? This seems a non sequitor to me. If the individual is ideal, why do you deny him the expression of that individuality? Seems like you are condemning someone to unhappiness because his desires do not correspond to those of the group.

Productivity is based upon the standards of the company and industry that has employed the above workers.

This again seems to me that the individual is getting the shaft. "The company" or "the industy" is dictating to the individual what and how he shall work. Isn't that exactly what Roark was railing against?

Its not a matter of one worker being a better person its about being productive in a free society.

Is "productive" enough, or does Rand require maximum productivity?

So reality doesn't exist?
Does reality have to be "absolute" to exist at all? I certainly don't believe so. Please explain what definition of "absolute" you are using.

This chair, this desk, this computer that I am using don't exist. If I wish and pray hard enough they will disappear or turn into an apple?

Still confused.

Slavery isn't wrong?
Not absolutely, no. Meaning in all times, places, and situations- no.

You have no core philosophy, your principles just blow in the wind depending on who you're around? What do you mean by this?
I mean that "reason" does not apply in any and every situation. Reason cannot prove the validity of reason, just for starters. Reason cannot be used to settle subjective issues such as flavour preference, standards of beauty, taste in art. One can pretend that one does use reason for such determinations, but I have not seen a syllogism yet for such things where the premises did not dictate the conclusion. Do you have one to offer?

Reason, therefore is not an "absolute."
 
I am compelled, at approximately this point in any Ayn Rand thread, to point out that The Fountainhead would be much more entertaining if Howard Roark were an evil skeleton.

Usually, somebody's already posted this Bob the Angry Flower strip by now:

atlass.gif
 
Educate us, then. What is it we are missing?
Not my job - I gave up teaching a decade ago.

Also, Larsen, I suspect that you are too full of yourself to be able to learn much. I doubt very much that your request was sincere.
 

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