Ayn Rand speaks to Mike Wallace, 1959

You cannot compare the healthcare systems of say, American and Canada, and be comparing free market vs socialized medicine.

For one thing, America's health care system isnt driven by the free market. There is plenty of government intrusion that claims to be socialistic.

The noted difference in the economic reality of these two countries in this regard could simply be related to how bad it is to do things half-arsed. As a single example, many poor in the U.S. utilize emergency rooms as if they were clinics or the local general practitioner. They do so with the threat of legal consequences if the ER does not treat them. Clearly an ER, which isnt designed to be a clinic, cannot perform economically like a clinic would. This isn't free market at all.

Still further, the American legal system puts a very heavy burden on the practitioners of medicine due to our tort laws. Extensive malpractice insurance is essential because our legal system demands it. If you don't have it then you wont be practicing medicine for very long.

So does this mean we have a socialized contrustuction industry or any other industry that has high insurance requirements? The tort law has nothing to do with if it is a free market or not, or does a free market remove the need to compensate people you dammage now?

And still no one can tell me if pulling a Crassus is moral to Ayn Rand.
 
[All too common conservative tropes]

This is the same stuff I hear over and over again, and I wonder if anyone has bothered to check their facts. According to Wikipedia, the NIH is responsible for 28% of basic biomedical funding, most of it, i believe, going toward basic research. Pharmaceutical companies are best at applied research and marketing the hell out of the latest drug that may cause anal leakage [cue old people dancing]. This free-riding business is vastly overblown (unless we're talking about private industry coasting on tax-payer money), not unlike all this exaggerated nonsense regarding malpractice claims. Besides, the threat of lawsuits is closer to a free market solution: If doctors do not provide the care contracted, then they have to face the consequences.
 
Are you really trying to defend her inteligence by comparing her to Paris Hilton?
I was providing a counter-example that is relevant to right now and that can be viewed easily on YouTube etc., and who is populary accepted as an unintelligent person so that the thread doesn't get dragged into a tangent about the example person's intelligence.

And I am not "defending" her intelligence, because there was no attack on it. You asked a question about why others considered her extremely intelligent, and I'm taking the time to answer for you. I will take it from your tone though, that the response was valid enough that it threatened your current opinion and thus upset you.

So that her morality cares nothing for human life in an abstract sense is a true mark of inteligence?
Her morality is cold and detached. Being cold and detached, in and of itself, is not a true mark of intelligence. But in combination with the other observations, it strongly suggests an extremely intelligent person.

Likewise, holding a knife alone is not the mark of a murderer, but in combination with standing in front of a person who just died from stab wounds, it strongly suggests that you just killed someone.
 
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The problem is becuase so many people find a truth and think it is the only thing. Free markets work well for some things therefore free markets are the morally superior solution to all problems.

This absolutist thinking produces all the looniest ideologies and political structures.

Oh come on!

Take a look at this thread; the absolutists are the ones bashing Rand, not supporting her. They are the ones who, like you, exaggerated her belief system into something silly and then bashed her for it. The truth is that those that actually subscribe to her philosophies are few, insignificant and have no real influence on political discourse in today's world.

Rand is worth paying attention to because she does raise some valid points about the destructiveness of socialism, but other than telling people what not to do, her overall philosophy isn't very useful as any kind of a guide. She is, at most, a starting point for some interesting discussions.
 
So does this mean we have a socialized contrustuction industry or any other industry that has high insurance requirements?

It means that we cannot make inferences about the economics of the American construction industry as if it were an ideal example of a free market construction industry without also considering the economic effects of the tort system which is external to it. Changes in the law will effect the economics of the industry.

In the case of the American medical industry, the economic effects that the tort system has is considerable.

This is simply to say that we cannot make fair comparisons without considering the economic impacts of differing tort systems and the laws which go hand in hand with them.

It is not pro or anti Ayn Rand. It is a point of fact which undermines some of the comparisons that several people tried to use to justify anti-Rand conclusions in regards to the medical industry.

They may well be right, but their point wasn't.

So I stand on my post. We cannot make fair compairisons between the USA and Canada based only on cost per patient, and draw conclusions about free market vs socialized.


And still no one can tell me if pulling a Crassus is moral to Ayn Rand.

Beats me.. I'm not a loyal Objectivist.
 
Besides, the threat of lawsuits is closer to a free market solution: If doctors do not provide the care contracted, then they have to face the consequences.

For one thing, it is not that there are consequences that is important here, but instead on the extent of those consequences. It is not unheard of for a litigant in a civil case against a doctor or medical institution in America to walk away with many times the lifetime earnings of the average doctor. Consequently doctors, or their institution, pay large amounts of money to insurance companies to shield themselves from these risks.

For another, civil torts in America are handled differently than civil torts in other countries. Not only is this true, but when an industry is socialized along with it comes extensive laws in regards to what can and cannot be claimed during a tort.

Also in America, torts which fail to prove their case are still often very expensive to defend against. In some cases, the plaintiff in a failed tort will be responsible for the legal bills of the defending party, but this doesnt mean much when the plaintiff is poor.

its Apples and Oranges. Thats all I am saying. American Foo is not equal to Free Market Foo.
 
And I am not "defending" her intelligence, because there was no attack on it. You asked a question about why others considered her extremely intelligent, and I'm taking the time to answer for you. I will take it from your tone though, that the response was valid enough that it threatened your current opinion and thus upset you.

I don't see the point of this at all. Her arguments should be considered on their merits; personal intelligence is moot. Judging by her philosophy, I do not see any indication of brilliance but I admit my perspective is skewed. I see major personality shortcomings, though that's not exactly relevant. Some sources say Kant had an IQ of 105, though others estimate it at over 200. It doesn't really matter.

Her morality is cold and detached.

Her morality does not seem "detached" enough! What a surprise given she exalts egotism :rolleyes: _The Fountainhead_, as I remember it, was littered with emotional appeals, some of which made absolutely no sense. A line I may never forget declares collectivism is something like "slavery to slavery without the dignity of a master." Face it, Rand's writings are of the sort that make socially maladjusted teens hard. She produced stroke books. (Not that that matters any more than her alleged intelligence.)

I should think a properly detached egoism would not distinguish between people and rocks when it comes to frustrating one's goals. What's wrong with harming others in order to further *my* interests? "Objectivists" usually insist on answering that my "real" or "true" rational self-interest could not possibly involve harming others. This is where Rand's armchair psychology often comes into play (see the fine example of a female president). Rand appeals to what she thinks is the proper and truly rational nature of humankind.

A coherent agent-relative ethical egoism takes into the fact that people are built differently. Objectivists do not really give a fig if people are starving to death half way around the world, but if take into account revealed preferences, most of us are the same. That doesn't make it right; it speaks to our beastly nature, they're just unapologetic about it. People who do care are easily dismissed as "bleeding hearts" who let their emotions get the better of them. Let's turn to lying and stealing. Why is it wrong for an Objectivist to steal money in a situation where there is a 99% chance he won't get caught? I've heard Objectivists say the guilt is not worth it. Piekoff uses the example of stealing an apple in childhood, loss of self-esteem, being a "creator" and all that jazz. You know what I say? Don't get all emotional and namby pamby on me, man! Stealing can be exhilarating, and do wonders for your self-esteem. Just ask any confidence man. When magician Michael Close was ripping people off for Penn and Teller's TV program, he said stealing "for real" was unbelievably thrilling -- much more exciting than a silly demonstration.

Rational, detached behavior involves regarding the interests of others. I think the example Unger uses is that you're traveling through a fairly obscure, rural place in your new car, one boasting expensive leather seats. You come across a man who is bleeding and in desperate need of medical assistance. If you help him into the car to take him to the hospital, then your seats will be ruined, and will require hundreds of dollars to be replaced. Alternatively, you could let him die. Sorry, no working phones nearby, no beach towels in the trunk. Most people say they help the man in need, even at the expense of a few hundred dollars. Now, regain perspective: tens of thousands are dying from preventable disease, and for a much smaller sum of money you can literally save lives. The difference is that death and dying is so remote that it doesn't press the same emotional buttons; it lacks the same sense of immediacy, even though this difference is entirely superficial. This is where people conjure up rationalizations: "Oh, I've heard scattered reports through out my life about how those charities are corrupt."

Another example to consider is the case of an Objectivist Vampire. This is what, in my view, made _Interview with the Vampire_ so interesting. Lestat (Cruise) accepts himself for what he is. He "initiates force," harms humans, but it's in his nature to do so. Louis (Pitt) is such an awful, boring, self-loathing gloomy Gus.

An "Objectivist" should say that a vampire should eat humans, assuming it's in the nature of vampires to do so. This is "rational" behavior. Then there are those of us who actually do believe in something resembling a universal (or "objective") morality, and we say otherwise. You want cold and detached? Try the utilitarian who donates the bulk of his income to Oxfam.

rockoon writes:
For one thing, it is not that there are consequences that is important here, but instead on the extent of those consequences. It is not unheard of for a litigant in a civil case against a doctor or medical institution in America to walk away with many times the lifetime earnings of the average doctor. Consequently doctors, or their institution, pay large amounts of money to insurance companies to shield themselves from these risks.

So? The fact of the matter is the VAST MAJORITY of people with legitimate grievances do not sue. Payments should be large enough to not only cover the damage inflicted by incompetent doctors, but provide a strong enough incentive so that mistakes are less likely to occur. Big deal if they walk away many times richer than a doctor, especially if a family member has died. You don't want to sound like the economically-illiterate leftists (apologies for the pleonastic phrasing) who criticize drug companies for spending more money on advertising than research and development. Advertising more means selling more, which increases the size of the pie, allowing more money for R&D. Right? I don't think the additional differences you cited matter to what I was highlighting. Apart from the fact our governments grant and enforce monopoly rights on new drugs (like any patent), I think you glossed over the anti-free market subsidies the pharmaceutical industry receives.
 
Oh come on!

Take a look at this thread; the absolutists are the ones bashing Rand, not supporting her. They are the ones who, like you, exaggerated her belief system into something silly and then bashed her for it. The truth is that those that actually subscribe to her philosophies are few, insignificant and have no real influence on political discourse in today's world.

Rand is worth paying attention to because she does raise some valid points about the destructiveness of socialism, but other than telling people what not to do, her overall philosophy isn't very useful as any kind of a guide. She is, at most, a starting point for some interesting discussions.

I posed a specific question as to morality in a certain situation, none of her supporters can answer that simple question. Why should I think much of something that can not answer a simple question with historical precedent?
 
It means that we cannot make inferences about the economics of the American construction industry as if it were an ideal example of a free market construction industry without also considering the economic effects of the tort system which is external to it. Changes in the law will effect the economics of the industry.

So in your ideal free market people never make mistakes, or there is no need to make financial recompense to those dammaged by your actions?
 
I posed a specific question as to morality in a certain situation, none of her supporters can answer that simple question. Why should I think much of something that can not answer a simple question with historical precedent?

I don't recall ever instructing you to "think much of" anything. What I did was to point out that some of your specific criticisms don't make sense:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2732232#post2732232

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2723862#post2723862
 
I posed a specific question as to morality in a certain situation, none of her supporters can answer that simple question. Why should I think much of something that can not answer a simple question with historical precedent?

Ponder, I intended to answer your question of a few days ago, but got busy. So here is your answer. I can find no direct answer in the writings of Rand. Therefore here is my opinion on how she would have thought.

Does the provider of Emergency services have the right to charge exorbinant prices?

Answer: Yes. Your question presumes that a REGULATED MARKET would be a superior one. And she does have numerous essays about the evils of government regulated markets.

Is that adequate?
 
So in your ideal free market people never make mistakes, or there is no need to make financial recompense to those dammaged by your actions?

You can argue the pros and cons of a free market systems all you want. I have made no judgement here on the matter. If you really want an arguement about it, go find someone willing to make a judgement.

This isnt about what an ideal free market system should be, or the merits of one. This is about why you cannot compare America with Canada and declare that it is a comparison of free market vs socialism.

This, inspite of the fact that Canada isnt an ideal socialist system either.

This begs the question of why you are looking to argue the merits of the free market system with someone who has not taken a stand on the matter here. Did you fail to argue it successfully with those who did take a stand?
 
Ponder, I intended to answer your question of a few days ago, but got busy. So here is your answer. I can find no direct answer in the writings of Rand. Therefore here is my opinion on how she would have thought.

Does the provider of Emergency services have the right to charge exorbinant prices?

Answer: Yes. Your question presumes that a REGULATED MARKET would be a superior one. And she does have numerous essays about the evils of government regulated markets.

Is that adequate?

That is not quite what I was asking. She would seem to be infavor of not outlawing it, but would she consider it moral or immoral? She went beyond simply social organizational structure to morality of individual acts.

So that is helpful, but does not really answer the question.
 
You can argue the pros and cons of a free market systems all you want. I have made no judgement here on the matter. If you really want an arguement about it, go find someone willing to make a judgement.

The point is that most people who argue for such free markets talk about individual responsibility, and suing a doctor for malpractice would seem to be a prime example of holding an individual accountable for their actions.

So is it the insurance and collectivization of risk that is counter to the free market, or the holding negligent doctors responsible that is counter to the free market?
 
So is it the insurance and collectivization of risk that is counter to the free market, or the holding negligent doctors responsible that is counter to the free market?

I suspect that you refuse to get the point because you really really want to argue the merits of socialism vs free market.

Tough. I wont.

Now what?
 
I don't see the point of this at all. Her arguments should be considered on their merits; personal intelligence is moot. Judging by her philosophy, I do not see any indication of brilliance but I admit my perspective is skewed. I see major personality shortcomings, though that's not exactly relevant. Some sources say Kant had an IQ of 105, though others estimate it at over 200. It doesn't really matter.
I know that, but PonderingTurtle asked a question and I was answering him.

Her morality does not seem "detached" enough! What a surprise given she exalts egotism :rolleyes: _The Fountainhead_, as I remember it, was littered with emotional appeals, some of which made absolutely no sense.
Her emotional appeals were to herself and the self...she was cold and detached to others.

I should think a properly detached egoism would not distinguish between people and rocks when it comes to frustrating one's goals. What's wrong with harming others in order to further *my* interests? "Objectivists" usually insist on answering that my "real" or "true" rational self-interest could not possibly involve harming others. This is where Rand's armchair psychology often comes into play (see the fine example of a female president). Rand appeals to what she thinks is the proper and truly rational nature of humankind.
No. Rand did not favor stealing or using force against others. She was for laissez faire capitalism. The entire rest of your post is based on this misunderstanding, please correct it before we continue.
 
No. Rand did not favor stealing or using force against others. She was for laissez faire capitalism. The entire rest of your post is based on this misunderstanding, please correct it before we continue.

Misunderstanding, indeed. I thought I made it crystal clear Rand did not favor lying or stealing. The argument is that this belief is inconsistent with authentic ethical egoism. Please do try to read a little deeper, if you can.
 
That is not quite what I was asking. She would seem to be infavor of not outlawing it, but would she consider it moral or immoral? She went beyond simply social organizational structure to morality of individual acts.

So that is helpful, but does not really answer the question.

Okay, I get the gist of your question. First I am going to answer your question, then I am going to support it, and ref a short section of Rand's writings. I hope this method is not boring or trivializing the subject, because you have asked a very good question.

Is it moral or immoral to extort a large sum from an accident victim, and refuse to help unless he pays up? (qualification: Personal morality issue. It should be clear to all that Rand would have opposed law, social forcings, on the issue).

Immoral. Grossly, obscenely immoral.


That is stated irrespective of the following -

My duty as a capitalist and competitor ambulance driver is to drive him out of business, lest he sully the reputation of those in our trade and thus impinge on my prosperity in the trade.


Now, why do I say this according to Rand?

Realize the following. Rand did not say "be a MiniRand". She was not out to create babbling RandHeads, but people who could think, being essentially, a teacher. This is in large part why there is wrongness associated with Randness. A lot of people who followed Rand thought they should become little philosophers.

She said on the contrary, go do lots of really cool stuff, improve the world and prosper. So look at what I did in answering the above question. I answered it. It reflects what I think.


Reference (Again from VS)

9. The Cult of Moral Grayness
by Ayn Rand

One of the most eloquent symptoms of the moral bank*ruptcy of today’s culture, is a certain fashionable attitude toward moral issues, best summarized as: “There are no blacks and whites, there are only grays.” This is asserted in regard to persons, actions, principles of conduct, and morality in general. “Black and white,” in this context, means “good and evil.” (The reverse order used in that catch phrase is interesting psychologically.) In any respect one cares to examine, that notion is full of contradictions (foremost among them is the fallacy of “the stolen concept”). If there is no black and white, there can be no gray—since gray is merely a mixture of the two.

Before one can identify anything as “gray,” one has to know what is black and what is white. In the field of moral*ity, this means that one must first identify what is good and what is evil. And when a man has ascertained that one alternative is good and the other is evil, he has no justifica*tion for choosing a mixture. There can be no justification for choosing any part of that which one knows to be evil. In morality, “black” is predominantly the result of at*tempting to pretend to oneself that one is merely “gray.”

If a moral code (such as altruism) is, in fact, impossible to practice, it is the code that must be condemned as “black,” not its victims evaluated as “gray.” If a moral code prescribes irreconcilable contradictions—so that by choosing the good in one respect, a man becomes evil in another—it is the code that must be rejected as “black.” If a moral code is inapplicable to reality—if it offers no guidance ex*cept a series of arbitrary, groundless, out-of-context injunctions and commandments, to be accepted on faith and practiced automatically, as blind dogma—its practitioners cannot properly be classified as “white” or “black” or “gray”: a moral code that forbids and paralyzes moral judg*ment is a contradiction in terms.

If, in a complex moral issue, a man struggles to determine what is right, and fails or makes an honest error, he cannot be regarded as “gray”; morally, he is “white.” Errors of knowledge are not breaches of morality; no proper moral code can demand infallibility or omniscience. But if, in order to escape the responsibility of moral judg*ment, a man closes his eyes and mind, if he evades the facts of the issue and struggles not to know, he cannot be re*garded as “gray”; morally, he is as “black” as they come.
 

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