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Ayn rand and healthcare

Don't put words in my mouth or make unsupportable assumptions--so was I. The company I was thinking of is too small to have desk jobs; besides, the guy in question started out slinging the garbage cans, and worked his way up to owning the company (and, if I recall correctly, putting his former employers out of business). My argument is that it CAN be done, even in a job most of us have nothing but contempt for (which, ironically enough, is why the man got rich); which means there's nothing inherent in the job preventing people from saving for it; which means that there are some other factors in play. My guess is that these are primarily personal factors--the personality of the person, choices they made in the past, etc. And before anyone jumps down my throat claiming I'm blaming the victim, let me point out that I'm in a situation that's fairly close to what's being described. My family is in a great deal of debt and a major illness would ruin us financially. And I'm applying the same arguments to myself.

Re-read my post again. Where did I say they were? My argument is that there is nothing inherent in the job of garbage collecting which prevents people from saving money. In other jobs, yes. In poorly-payed jobs, yes. In garbage collecting? It depends.


All of the above is totally pointless. There is a very small percentage of people in our society, no matter what their choices or personality traits, who will ever save up enough money to pay for catastrophic-level medical care out of pocket -- unless you happen to think that everyone can actually become rich, as if there's actually enough money floating around to make that possible.

What you're left with is a society where a few rich people can afford life-saving care, and of the rest, if they have cancer or heart disease or a major accident, can just die.

Which group includes Ayn Rand?
 
Considering the fact that one of the richest men in the town I grew up in WAS the garbage collector, I'd say the job isn't the main issue.

I'd recommend reading her works. This issue is very clearly dealt with in her essay "Counterfeit Individualism."
"Counterfeit Individualism"

Sorry, I'm not impressed. It's the typical Rand view that groups don't exist, only individuals exist and that simply contradicts the fact we are a gregarious species by evolution. We did not evolve as solitary beings and very few humans choose to live in isolation in the wilderness.
 
"Counterfeit Individualism"

Sorry, I'm not impressed. It's the typical Rand view that groups don't exist, only individuals exist and that simply contradicts the fact we are a gregarious species by evolution. We did not evolve as solitary beings and very few humans choose to live in isolation in the wilderness.

I agree. The basis of her individual is the rejection of groups as valid categories of reference. This is little more than sophistry. It's like saying there's no city, state, country, etc., only individual citizens; no family, only individual family members; no human being, only individual cells; etc. But all you have to do is look around and see that the individual is anything but independent in a civil society; they depend on a number of factors for their survival, and I'd argue that one of those factors is the cooperation and mutual well-being of other individuals in that society.

I see other weaknesses in her philosophy specifically dealing with her use of Social Security, which I tried to point out in my last post. The first weakness I see here is that she was vehemently opposed the system itself, which she viewed as morally wrong, and essentially called the people who use it "parasites," looters" and moochers." Part of this is based on the assumption that the money is taken from the heroic producers and given to lazy dead-beats who should've simply worked harder and saved for things like cancer surgery themselves. But, instead of doing that herself, she applied for and received benefits under the justification that, like most people who receive them, she'd already paid into the system and was therefore entitled to these benefits.

To me, this undermines the idea that the majority of people who use and otherwise perpetuate the system are "parasites," looters" and moochers" because they too have paid into the system, with payments based on lifetime earnings (which, of course, are taxed). If she isn't a parasite for using the system, then most of the people who use it aren't either. This includes people like my mother, who worked hard her whole life until she ended up getting sick and became unable to work.

The second weakness has to do with her illness itself. Rand was big on personal responsibility and the idea that we're responsible for making good decisions, along with reaping the fruits of our own labour. However, Rand herself basically ignored all the evidence that smoking was harmful, and eventually developed lung cancer. It seems to me that, according to her own philosophy, she should've taken responsibility for her smoking and paid for her own medical needs from the money she earned and saved from her writing career. Instead, she signed up for Social Security because she felt entitled to it. By that reasoning, everyone who pays into Social Security is entitled to it, including people who get sick from their own risky behaviour.

This, I think, undermines much of her moral philosophy when it comes to its stress on individualism and personal responsibility. If a successful writer has trouble paying her medical bills and needs help, why shouldn't everyone else who's worked hard but is still unable to afford all the care they need get it? What's so morally wrong with a system that attempts to provide such a safety net? Is a system of taxation and redistribution really more morally reprehensible than a system which lets the sick, poor and elderly die due to lack of means? Charity only goes so far.

I don't have an issue with people who are critical of the government's management of the system (it can definitely be improved), or even those who take the position that taxes are stealing (for those who don't wish to pay them, I suppose they are; although, I don't see how a complex, modern civil society can function without taxes, especially considering how interconnected everything is, and most people I know pay them willing). But I do have an issue with a moral philosophy that more or less blames the victim for being a victim.
 
Yeah, what does the thread's contents have to do with Ayn Rand and/or healthcare?

Well I always wonder what her take on refusing to give someone an epipen until they sign over their house to you. The best answer I have heard is that this is the kind of real world problem that is too complex for her philosophy so she rejects it.
 
I originally posted this in the health care administration thread but it might be more topical here.

Ayn Rand, a near-perfect example of why we need a universal system of health care.

As Pryor said, "Doctors cost a lot more money than books earn and she could be totally wiped out" without the aid of these two government programs. Ayn took the bail out even though Ayn "despised government interference and felt that people should and could live independently... She didn't feel that an individual should take help."

It is not like a bit of hypocrisy now and then is new about what we know about her. If it advantaged her she would readily violate the tenants of her own philosophy.
 

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