Australia's carbon (dioxide) tax

lionking said:
The point that almost everybody gets is that this carbon price will encourage industries to move to less polluting technologies.
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The reality is "almost everybody" hates this tax and does not want it.

PUBLIC support for the carbon price has plunged to a record low of 33 per cent, as Prime Minister Julia Gillard faces the fight of her political life to try to reconcile the public to her deeply unpopular tax.

An Age/Nielsen poll taken in the days leading up to the launch of the tax yesterday found one in two Australians believe it will leave them worse off.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/voters-desert-carbon-tax-20120701-21b4d.html

It seems I am not the only one in Australia that finds it hard to believe her on this.
 
Its popularity has little bearing on whether it achieves its objective. Except (as I said above) if businesses expect it to be abandoned then nobody is going to change long term plans.
 
Francesca R said:
Its popularity has little bearing on whether it achieves its objective. Except (as I said above) if businesses expect it to be abandoned then nobody is going to change long term plans.
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And what is the (Gillard's) objective exactly?
 
A.A. Alfie said:
The reality is "almost everybody" hates this tax and does not want it.
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This surprises me even from you. What was the support for the GST just after it was implemented? Hell, what percentage of people hate income tax and dont want it? It's completely irrevelent.

The majority of the population would re-introduce the death penalty, stop foreign aid and stop immigration all together. Do you support these moves and government by opinion poll?

Oh, and guess what:

http://www.theage.com.au/environmen...rs-support-new-tax-scheme-20120706-21mn9.html


LESS than a quarter of the heavy greenhouse emitters that will directly pay the carbon tax openly back Tony Abbott's ''pledge in blood'' to repeal the scheme, a survey by The Saturday Age has found.
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Francesca R said:
See post 32
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To discourage co2 emissions; I understand that. But to what end exactly?
The concerns many have here is that this will make us less competitive economically, and we are uncertain as to what the gain will be for the pain it will inflict.
 
lionking said:
This surprises me even from you. What was the support for the GST just after it was implemented? Hell, what percentage of people hate income tax and dont want it? It's completely irrevelent.

The majority of the population would re-introduce the death penalty, stop foreign aid and stop immigration all together. Do you support these moves and government by opinion poll?

Oh, and guess what:

http://www.theage.com.au/environmen...rs-support-new-tax-scheme-20120706-21mn9.html
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Gosh that's a lot of straw in a very short post. :)

I was really hoping you could support your "almost everyone" claim?
 
A.A. Alfie said:
Gosh that's a lot of straw in a very short post. :)

I was really hoping you could support your "almost everyone" claim?
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Are you seriously questioning that the carbon tax is about encouraging polluters to move to non-polluting technologies? Seriously?

And you think people don't get this? Really?
 
A.A. Alfie said:
The concerns many have here is that this will make us less competitive economically, and we are uncertain as to what the gain will be for the pain it will inflict.
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Yes it will reduce competitiveness relative to no tax. Although the more countries join in with taxing/pricing CO2 emissions, the smaller is the competitiveness loss.

Also, since Australia's competitive advantage in coal-related exports is based on it extracting economic rent from a natural endowment which has unpriced externalities, many would agree that it is ethically the correct policy anyway even though the tax may reduce your national income.

Uncertainty re the cost/benefit can't be resolved in advance, but is not by itself a reason not to proceed given that there is a political desire to change (CO2 emitting) behaviour. Your stance seems aligned with that of an AGW doubter, which is a different subject.
 
lionking said:
Are you seriously questioning that the carbon tax is about encouraging polluters to move to non-polluting technologies? Seriously?

And you think people don't get this? Really?
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I am questioning Gillard's claims. Can you support her lies? Yes or no?
 
A.A. Alfie said:
I am questioning Gillard's claims. Can you support her lies? Yes or no?
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They are not lies. I thought we had already established this. Lies are deliberately saying things you know are untrue. Where are the lies in that press release?
 
Francesca R said:
Yes it will reduce competitiveness relative to no tax. Although the more countries join in with taxing/pricing CO2 emissions, the smaller is the competitiveness loss.

Also, since Australia's competitive advantage in coal-related exports is based on it extracting economic rent from a natural endowment which has unpriced externalities, many would agree that it is ethically the correct policy anyway even though the tax may reduce your national income.

Uncertainty re the cost/benefit can't be resolved in advance, but is not by itself a reason not to proceed given that there is a political desire to change (CO2 emitting) behaviour. Your stance seems aligned with that of an AGW doubter, which is a different subject.
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So you would at least acknowledge that we are creating a situation that makes us less competitive and that it is ethically right to do so.

I thank you for your honesty, I am certain others (like our PM and her supporters here) will not have a modicum of your integrity. :cool:

Our PM has never said any such thing, indeed she says the opposite is true. Unlike you, she tells porkies, you know.;)
 
A.A. Alfie said:
I thank you for your honesty, I am certain others (like our PM and her supporters here) will not have a modicum of your integrity. :cool:
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And right on queue....

lionking said:
They are not lies. I thought we had already established this. Lies are deliberately saying things you know are untrue. Where are the lies in that press release?
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Which are not the lies in what I posted (post #8), why are they are not lies?

She either knows her claims are untrue (and that makes it a lie) or she is mistaken (and that makes her a bad PM). Francesca has just supported the fact that some of them are er.. inaccurate (I wish not to put words in her mouth).

Like I said earlier, she is a world famous liar, why would we believe her?
 
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So you can't repeat just one single lie. Illuminating.

ETA not one of the quotes in your beloved post 8 is a lie. They are predictions.
 
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A.A. Alfie said:
Am I to understand you correctly? The goal of the carbon (dioxide) tax is not about stopping the world from catastrophic global warming?
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Yes. The goal of a carbon price is to send a price signal to high polluting industries start accounting for the external costs of their polluting activities. It is one measure being used to help Australia meet its paltry yet bipartisan emissions reduction target of a 5% reduction on 2000 emissions by 2020.

Now, about the rest of my post:

And seeing as though the Labor Party's goose is well and truly cooked and we will soon have an new PM it would be instructive to start critiquing the policies we will have in place after 2013 - maybe you could outline a cheaper alternative policy to meet the bipartisan target of a 5% reduction on 2000 emission levels by 2020?

I await, breath bated, in anticipation of your response.
 
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A.A. Alfie said:
So you would at least acknowledge that we are creating a situation that makes us less competitive and that it is ethically right to do so.
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Of course. I don't think you'll find me ever arguing that imposing a tax boosts output or competitiveness.

Our PM has never said any such thing, indeed she says the opposite is true. Unlike you, she tells porkies.
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That is a low hurdle for a lie. Every politician in the world lies on that yardstick.
 
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