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Australian released from Gitmo stabbed

Bjorn said:
You seem so sure that Mamdouh Habib is a terrorist, even if he has been reviewed, screened and released with no charges against him.

What evidence do you have for this? Just curious.
I've not said that he was in fact a terrorist, but you're correct that I don't believe this guy was one of the ones detained in error. This is a guy who Australian intelligence has been following for over 10 years. He has a long history of pro-terrorism activism. And yeah, the appearance at the headquarters of both WTC attacks seems a little iffy, to understate.

Australia is still interested in the guy (he has not got his passport back; that was a little joke to Fool, which I'm confident he got), and he avoided prosecution under Australia's new anti-terrorism law solely by the highly ironic circumstance that he had been separated from his terrorist friends prior to the passage of the law by virtue of his capture in Pakistan.

He shouldn't have been stabbed and his attackers should be hunted down and jailed or killed, but trust me on this -- don't rally 'round this guy.
 
manny said:
I've not said that he was in fact a terrorist
So when you posted this:

manny said:
Meeting with Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman in New York right before the first WTC bombing and on the Afghanistan/Pakistan border in al Qaeda country right before the second one without actually being a terrorist himself surely makes him some kind of precognitive.
.. you ment he was some kind of precognitive?
 
manny said:
Ah, you're right. Forgot about that.

He's a terrorist.
Only two post after this:

manny said:
I've not said that he was in fact a terrorist
I'm glad to see that you have the ability to change your mind. :)

Now what about that evidence again?
 
Skeptic said:
That's because terrorism is a bigger deal than one guy being stabbed, and going to the root cause is the only way to really solve a problem.

This is extremely dangerous moral thinking. It means that if I stab ONE guy, it's clearly MY fault, but if I killed thousands (or millions), that's not really my fault--it's the "root causes" that made me do it, we need to solve the "problem" as opposed to looking at it in that outmoded good-vs.-evil way, etc., etc.

The moral is: the more people you kill, the less responsible for their deaths you are, and the more legitimate your grievances become.

That's not what I mean. Individual terrorists are still morally and legally at fault and should be punished, but just because all the blame rests with someone doesn't mean they are the only cause. Only some causes are blameworthy. For example, if a man had set Hitler's parents on a blind date leading to them marrying and having Adolf, he would have partially caused the Holocaust, but he wouldn't be responsible in any way. But still, if you want to change the world, you should look at every contributing factor.
 
Bjorn said:
Now what about that evidence again?
Well, let's see. Someone already posted
This is a guy who Australian intelligence has been following for over 10 years. He has a long history of pro-terrorism activism. And yeah, the appearance at the headquarters of both WTC attacks seems a little iffy, to understate.

Australia is still interested in the guy (he has not got his passport back; that was a little joke to Fool, which I'm confident he got), and he avoided prosecution under Australia's new anti-terrorism law solely by the highly ironic circumstance that he had been separated from his terrorist friends prior to the passage of the law by virtue of his capture in Pakistan.
Then there was the phone call ASIO taped wherein he told his wife "something big" was about to happen in the US just prior to 9-11. Oh, and the lies about his treatment which came right out of captured al Qaeda manuals. And the Australian government is seeking to deny him compensation from his news interviews.
 
That's not what I mean. Individual terrorists are still morally and legally at fault and should be punished, but just because all the blame rests with someone doesn't mean they are the only cause.

I perfectly realize this is your point, but the problem is in the moving from the moral "X stabbing Y is evil" to the amoral "X stabbed Y because X did not have enough protein in his diet" is, in the case of terrorism, self-defeating.

The reason is this. Let's say X really did stab Y, inter alia, because X did not have enough protein in his diet, his brain developed abnormality, and led to lack of control over his actions. It would still be right to punish X (although perhaps less severely) for his actions and at the same time make sure others (and him) have enough protein in their diet.

So far, we agree.

But X did not go out to stab Y IN ORDER to get more protein in his diet, nor did he justify his actions in terms of "I lacked protein". Therefore, in this case, it is not morally dangerous to satisfy his (and others) need for protein in their diet. Heck, it is quite possible that he would refuse, or dislike, this solution forthe root cause.

How would X justify the stabbing, then? More often than not, X would justify the stabbing in terms of other "root causes" he IMAGINES--or pretends--are the "real cause" of his action. If he is black he might say he felt an uncontrollable rage at the injustice between (say) black and white people and his stabbing of a white person was a way to "get back" at that injustice. People tend to find, as the "real" cause of their action, the cause that makes them out to be innocent victims--and their victims to be the "real criminals".

The idea that the "root cause" of crime is opression and poverty, and that therefore criminals should be treated and not punished, led--naturally--to an explosion of crime, as this self-serving excuse filtered down from the intellectuals to the lower class and replaced the idea of personal responsibility, let alone guilt. Apart from everything else wrong with it, it is deeply racist: combine "criminal behavior is the result of opression, the criminal cannot help himself" with the (true) "black people had suffered repression", and what do you get? "Black people must be criminals, they can't help themselves". But I digress.

So, moving on: would it be wise to listen to THE STABBER about what the "real causes" of his actions are and what "injustice" he is out to stop? Should the government, say, raise government help for black people in order to make sure there are no more such stabbings because that is why he SAYS he stabbed someone? Of course not; that is not a real investigation of the "root causes". It is merely a surrender to blackmail, which would almost certainly cause more, not less, stabbings.

I hope the analogy is clear.

To consider the root causes of terror is one thing. The real "root cause" of terror, however, is rather obvious: the nefarious, bigoted, chauvinistic, and violent ideology known as "radical Islam", "Wahhabi Islam", or sometimes "Islamism". That is the real root cause--the equivalence of lack of protein in the diet--and THAT is something to fight indeed. Yes, it is possible that other causes play a role, but this is the main one.

But almost invariably, those who speak about the "root causes" mean nothing of the sort of investigating the real root causes. What they usually means, alas, is to listen to what THE TERRORIST says are the "root causes" and obeying what THE TERRORIST demands in order to stop his terror and sayt that THAT is the "root cause" of terror.

This is not "looking for the root causes"--this is simply surrender to blackmail, giving the terrorist what he wants in the hope that he'll stop. And it does nothing but invite of more of the same, since the terrorist's description of the "root cause" would invariably make himself out to be the victim and those he blew up to be the "real criminals"--with the conseuqent "recommendation" that the "real criminals" should be punished.

I mean, imagine a marriage counselor who says: "Well, domestic violence usually has its root causes in interpresonal conflict between the couples. To get to the bottom of the root causes of this tragic event, tell me again, Sir, when exactly was it that the bitch refused to iron your shirt?"
 
The Fool said:
Mamdouh Habib, the Australian released from Gitmo without charge has been stabbed.....No evidence yet that his attack was targeted or he was a victim of random crime. Injuries appear relatively minor.

[...] I hope this attack is not a reaction to this hate spinning as it's not my preferred image of what Australians are like...
You are too quick to form a very negative image of your fellow citizens. Australians have an unblemished, world-wide reputation as people who violently attack people at random. To suggest that Australians might select their targets is to make a completely unfair and inaccurate portrayal of the Australian people.

Consider the allegation in a bit of detail. The attackers tried the accused in absentia, jumped to a verdict, and then sought out their victim. In other words, they set up a kangaroo court in Australia. You can see the allure of this simple but faulty notion. It perpetuates a stereotype. On behalf of your fellow citizens, it is your duty to debunk that stereotype.
 
rikzilla said:
Pretty bad analogy Fool. AFAIK the Pope usually refrains from asking his followers to blow up buildings with people in them.

-z

Some of his His Priests mollest children...lets associate any visitors to the pope with that one eh?
 
manny said:
Yeah, that's pretty much it. Ever since ASIO's funding hit infinity back in '88 they've been following around pretty much every Australian of non-anglo or aborigine descent who visits New York.

So where do you think he'll visit first now that Australia has replaced his passport?
This is a skeptics forum Manny....whats this stuff about suspicion being evidence of guilt?
 
manny said:
and he avoided prosecution under Australia's new anti-terrorism law solely by the highly ironic circumstance that he had been separated from his terrorist friends prior to the passage of the law by virtue of his capture in Pakistan.

can you tell me what he avoided being prosecuted for? What charge did he avoid?




-- don't rally 'round this guy.

I am not, I care no more or less for this guy than anyone else...what I am rallying around is a thing called presumption of innocence...
 
The idea said:
You are too quick to form a very negative image of your fellow citizens. Australians have an unblemished, world-wide reputation as people who violently attack people at random. To suggest that Australians might select their targets is to make a completely unfair and inaccurate portrayal of the Australian people.

Consider the allegation in a bit of detail. The attackers tried the accused in absentia, jumped to a verdict, and then sought out their victim. In other words, they set up a kangaroo court in Australia. You can see the allure of this simple but faulty notion. It perpetuates a stereotype. On behalf of your fellow citizens, it is your duty to debunk that stereotype.
do you value the presumption of innocence? Can you write me a little essay about it?
 
The Fool said:
This is a skeptics forum Manny....whats this stuff about suspicion being evidence of guilt?

I think it's a lot easier for those who support indefinite imprisonment without charges/trial to rationalize their support for such a blatant violation of human rights by saying "Well, I'm sure he's guilty of something."

Wouldn't it be horrible to think that someone who is totally innocent be held against their will for such a long period of time. So, nudge nudge, wink wink, there's a good chance he's a sketchy character even if we can't prove it.
 
KelvinG said:
I think it's a lot easier for those who support indefinite imprisonment without charges/trial to rationalize their support for such a blatant violation of human rights by saying "Well, I'm sure he's guilty of something."

Wouldn't it be horrible to think that someone who is totally innocent be held against their will for such a long period of time. So, nudge nudge, wink wink, there's a good chance he's a sketchy character even if we can't prove it.
I've already said that I believe that at least some of the detainees were wholly innocent, so you can drop that particular lie right there.

I think that pro-terrorist persons believe that creating from whole cloth the myth that the US military a policy of intentionally picking up wholly innocent people and torturing them will help to bring about the downfall of western governments and aid their radical leftist agenda.
 
manny said:
Then there was the phone call ASIO taped wherein he told his wife "something big" was about to happen in the US just prior to 9-11. Oh, and the lies about his treatment which came right out of captured al Qaeda manuals. And the Australian government is seeking to deny him compensation from his news interviews.
couple of problems here too......the "phone call ASIO taped". What is the original source of this claim?Can anyone point to asio claiming it exists...or the Australian government referring to it? I don't mean that they have phone taps...they have apparently been recording him for some time but no conversation recording has ever been produced.... or even a claim that one exists by the group who is supposed to have it (not that I have seen) can you help with a source to such a claim?

He claims to have been tortured, is that an extaordinary claim? Are all claims of torture lies or just habibs?

How about a source for the claims the Australian government is trying to deny him payment for news interviews?


how about we try charging him with being under suspicion? as we have come up very short trying to use evidence as the basis for charges.
 
manny said:

I think that pro-terrorist persons believe that creating from whole cloth the myth that the US military a policy of intentionally picking up wholly innocent people and torturing them will help to bring about the downfall of western governments and aid their radical leftist agenda.

Yeahhhhh.....Not to be rude or anything, but this doesn't strike me as the most rational of beliefs.
 
The Fool said:
do you value the presumption of innocence?
Yes!

The Fool said:
Can you write me a little essay about it?
Your post that started this thread posed a more interesting challenge. What would be the purpose of a generic essay? If you observe posts, on this message board, that attack the presumption of innocence, then bring them to my attention. I might find that the attack is based on some principles that merit analysis and ridicule.
 
From this story I would say that it appears he was targeted. The attacker went for him immediately, no demands for money or anything and then said "something like 'this should keep you quiet"' (according to Habib's wife).

"I was struck to the back of the head from someone behind me," he said. "I'm not sure what I was struck with but I don't think it was a fist.

"I turned around and pushed my wife away to protect her. I saw a male facing me with a knife in his hand."

Mr Habib said that one man lunged at him several times with the knife and he received a shallow cut in his stomach.

Mrs Habib said that as the men ran away the man holding the knife had yelled "something like 'this should keep you quiet"'.

Her husband said the three men were dressed in jumpers or jackets with hoods pulled over their heads and also wore caps.

Men trailed and knifed me - Habib
 

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