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Australian Federal Election 2010

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Evidence



Sources?



I think we can assume a lot differently than that.

Sure they departed a murderous regime. Why would they go back unless they were anything but genuine refugees? Unless there were lots of murderesses (are they like the Sirens from Homer' Odyssey; deadly seductresses?) luring the unwary sailors to their ultimate demise :)
I made a spelling mistake.
Have you evidence to any of this nonsense of yours? It was your article after all that you brought into discussion.
I don't know what else you can ask for. Refugees sent back are killed by the regime they were fleeing from. Kind of wraps it up for me.

And finally (see **), are you blaming the Murdoch press for this too? :confused::boggled:
The Australian Government.
 
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I quoted the bit that I wanted you to look at, I even mentioned the page number that the statement first appears.

I can't find that reference either (I'm starting to think this is a ruse). Could you please show me where exactly this information is; I am happy to look at it but sheesh, throw me a bone.

And what? You said that TPV's stopped people from getting on the boats. They're your own words.

They're not my words, I said "if anything they would help stop people getting on boats". And so far you haven't actually shown me evidence to the contrary. Pehaps you could show me where you furnished me with the page reference etc. Or better yet, supply me with the actual comments outlining the findings.

I will happily be shown wrong on this TPV thing of yours, but I would like to see the evidence.

And do you think that this will work if reimplemented? Even if certain aspects couldn't be reimplemented?

Sure. Why wouldn't it work? Which bits - with certainty - can't be reimplemented?

The evidence behind that was in the post with all the links that you didn't bother to look at.

I looked, it was too long for me to be bothered going through the entire thing. Show me a page, give me a statement, something.

And these others are?

People with a brain.
Actually, you might just try broadening your reading.

Right, because the Malaysian solution is so much worse then Abbotts plan which involves forced return. It's not like that will cause any deaths. :rolleyes:

The boats would be turned around where possible and safely, the likelihood is slim. And yes, Malaysia is a lot worse than Nauru for a number of reasons. Are you suggesting Malaysia (who cane refugees as punishment) is a better system than Nauru (where we have control)?

Which judges?

The High court judges.

To someone who happens to read what you say they would get the impression that you only care about these people as long as they don't come here.

Like you, they would be wrong.

So why do you ignore push factors?

I didn't realise I had. But nor do I ignore the compelling pull factors.

Tell me why pull factors are greater than push factors.

Have I made such a claim somewhere?
 
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I made a spelling mistake.

And I made a joke about it. :)

I don't know what else you can ask for. Refugees sent back are killed by the regime they were fleeing from. Kind of wraps it up for me.

I can ask for reasons why they were sent back. Can you tell me why? Perhaps they were terrorists. Were they?
This was your item mate, you can support it or not. As it stands we know:
- refugees are (or were) screened pending confirmation that they were genuine.
- if genuine they are accepted into Australia
- Non genuine refugees are returned.
- Some returned refugees are dead.
- why were they returned? We don't know.

Also, we don't actually know how many or how they died do we?
 
And I made a joke about it. :)



I can ask for reasons why they were sent back. Can you tell me why? Perhaps they were terrorists. Were they?
This was your item mate, you can support it or not. As it stands we know:
- refugees are (or were) screened pending confirmation that they were genuine.
- if genuine they are accepted into Australia
- Non genuine refugees are returned.
- Some returned refugees are dead.
- why were they returned? We don't know.

Also, we don't actually know how many or how they died do we?

You will believe any rumour about the labor party, a refugee is sent back to the Taliban, and is killed, your powers of scepticism suddenly appear.
 
You will believe any rumour about the labor party, a refugee is sent back to the Taliban, and is killed, your powers of scepticism suddenly appear.

I take that as a big dodge and concedes you have no idea as to whether they were genuine refugees (even terrorists) or not.
Thanks
 
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No, I am wondering why you have assumed they are innocent unless otherwise demonstrated.

Now, if you follow the links, and don't just make an assumption that they are by default guilty, and hence no more scepticism is needed.

http://www.erc.org.au/index.php?module=documents&JAS_DocumentManager_op=downloadFile&JAS_File_id=208

STORIES
These stories have been written with the permission of the rejected asylum seekers
but because many of them are still in danger, false names have been used and details of
some places on the journeys and present whereabouts have been concealed.
1 Rajab: Afghan
Rajab is a young Afghan man who fled from his country because of political and
religious divisions in his family and neighourhood. His father and grandfather were Shia and Hazara and his mother and her father and brothers were Sunni and Pashtun.3 After the death of the Shia grandfather and the mother’s conversion to Shia Islam, the Sunni uncles made life impossible for the family. A group of people came to his home and killed his elder brother and a week later Rajab’s father received a threat that persuaded the family to send Rajab away: It is now your other son’s turn. This was the time that my father paid a person who took me to a neighbouring country and sent me towards Australia.
Like others rescued at sea by the Norwegian ship Tampa, Rajab was taken into
detention in Nauru. Describing conditions there, he refers to the lack of legal advice, the poor standard of translations, the constant depression, isolation and uncertainty. When the quality of the food got worse, one Afghan on the staff told him this was a tactic to persuade them to go home. The Afghans, he said, were told by UNHCR and IOM staff that they must go back to Afghanistan: because it is now the policy of Australia to send refugees back.
However much your life will be in danger, you won’t be accepted.
Another IOM staff member told them that in another country, refugees unwilling to
go home had been drugged and sent back, adding ominously: So it may happen with you as well. Finally the death of a young friend in the detention camp convinced him and others to leave Nauru because: one day all will die here like him … The staff of IOM came to me and said don’t resist. They will send you. If you didn’t go now, one day they will send you by force. And really I had lost the hope of life. So I thought better to die in my own country than here.
In Nauru, IOM had assured him and his companions that on arrival in Kabul they
would be taken to a special centre for returnees until they were able to move elsewhere. In fact, IOM only offered to take them to their homes but as their families had fled, this was quite impossible for most of them and they asked to be taken to the promised centre. IOM then told them that it was not yet ready and left them without any support, with little money and dressed in clothing appropriate for the heat of Nauru. It was snowing in Kabul.
He and his companions then rented a room and went into hiding until they could
escape to other countries. He told us: I left home because throughout Afghanistan I am not safe. I and few other boys found a rented room; we were hidden in this room and day by daywe escaped to neighbouring countries. The weather in Kabul and all over Afghanistan was so cold and I had nothing to wear and could not go to buy. So I really spent very bad days of frigid weather. In Nauru the hottest, in Afghanistan the coldest!
Thinking that his family by then might be in Pakistan or Iran, Rajab spent a year
searching for them without success. He returned to Afghanistan once and in his home town learned that members of a fundamentalist sect had seized his family’s house and land. His family’s story had been spread around that sect’s political group, so that none of them were safe in Afghanistan. Escaping an assassination attempt, he fled again into a neighbouring country where he lives in hiding, still not safe: I live in this country illegally and any time police can catch me or they can blame me of any crime as it has happened to me before.
When interviewed he had not been able to find his family and is not confident for
the future: I could not succeed to find them yet. It is impossible for me and for my family to go to my homeland and this issue can never be solved who ever comes [to power] in Afghanistan.

Sounds like a criminal to me. No wonder they sent him back. :rolleyes:
 
Sounds like a criminal to me. No wonder they sent him back. :rolleyes:

As a therapist I hear lots of stories from disgruntled 25 year olds, they will blame everyone and everything for their predicament and deny any personal responsibility. While I would love to delve further into this young man's situation it is actually impossible isn't it? Identifying details are deliberately not provided and/or are unobtainable. Consequently the dept of Immigration cannot tell its side of the story either, ensuring obscurity.

While it is a terrble tale, the young man is still alive and does not actually support your case that innocent people have been returned to their country of origin and killed. It is quite possible too that his story has a lot of truth but we can't really know can we?

Nor does it prove that he was not a terrorist or known criminal, does it? In fact, it is possible given his Shia leanings. One would love to know the official reason for his return, not just a one sided testimony gathered by people with a possible axe to grind from interviews with a displaced and (stated) mentally unsound young man.

You have an interesting and possibly unfair story, but it hardly constitutes proof of anything.

Good try, well found, but have another go.
 
I can't find that reference either (I'm starting to think this is a ruse). Could you please show me where exactly this information is; I am happy to look at it but sheesh, throw me a bone.

It's in this part of the quote tag like this sentence is. said:
Or you could open up the final report that I've linked to a couple of times now and do a search for "temporary protection visa".

They're not my words, I said "if anything they would help stop people getting on boats". And so far you haven't actually shown me evidence to the contrary.

Because you've refused to look. Or at least read the post where I outlined the evidence.

Pehaps you could show me where you furnished me with the page reference etc. Or better yet, supply me with the actual comments outlining the findings.

I will happily be shown wrong on this TPV thing of yours, but I would like to see the evidence.

You know the underlined words in this post? Those are called links. They take you to web pages that pretty much say the same things that I have said.

Sure. Why wouldn't it work? Which bits - with certainty - can't be reimplemented?

Well you won't be able to send the boats back to Indonesia because, as that article points out the Indonesians won't be very happy, and that the asylum seekers started to deliberately damage their boats.

I looked, it was too long for me to be bothered going through the entire thing. Show me a page, give me a statement, something.

If you click on the words "temporary protection visa" in this post then it will take you to a page on the parliamentary library about TPVs.

If you click on "Department Infrastructure Manager at Woomera" it will take you to testimony from said person to the Human Rights Commission (the bits most relevant are points 12. and 13.

If you click on "1923 children were in immigration detention" it will take you to a different page from the HRC. What you want is the section called "Children In Detention", specifically table 8.2.

If you click on "1563 children" you will be taken to a website set up about SIEV X which has summarised this DIMIA fact sheet into a nice table.

If you click on "up to 3721 people" you will be taken to the boat arrivals page from the parliamentary library that you already know about.

The last link is to the Senate Select Committee report that you're bitching about.

And after you've done that you should re-read that post again and you'll see that I mentioned the relevant points in my post and linked back to those so people can see I'm not making **** up, I believe they're called citations.

People with a brain.
Actually, you might just try broadening your reading.

So you've got nothing.

The boats would be turned around where possible and safely, the likelihood is slim. And yes, Malaysia is a lot worse than Nauru for a number of reasons. Are you suggesting Malaysia (who cane refugees as punishment) is a better system than Nauru (where we have control)?

But the boats that are turned around aren't going to Nauru, they're going to Indonesia which is about as bad. And considering that you were going on about how Malaysia haven't signed the Refugee convention I'm a little amazed that you're so willing to send people back to another country that hasn't signed it either.

The High court judges.

Which ones? For someone who's theme of the week (month?) is "evidence" you're doing a pretty bad job at actually providing it.

Like you, they would be wrong.

Then that means you've done a very bad job at getting your point across.

I didn't realise I had. But nor do I ignore the compelling pull factors.

Have I made such a claim somewhere?

Your arguments seem to rely on the premise that pull factors > push factors. Which is strange when you consider that refugees and asylum seekers typically don't make their decision to leave on pull factors.
 
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http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...in-rudd-stronger/story-fn7q4q9f-1226169166636

SUPPORT for Kevin Rudd is strengthening among key caucus members of Labor's Right faction after Julia Gillard's bungling of asylum seeker policy and the split in cabinet over her political tactics.

Senior members of the group responsible for Mr Rudd's removal said there had been a definite shift of mood among some MPs in the past week.Those staunchly opposed to a Rudd comeback have now said there was a resignation he may be the only solution.


and

"I was wrong. It's definitely going to be Rudd. It's irreversible. We are just dead otherwise. I think he will be the only chance many will have of keeping their seats
 
Or you could open up the final report that I've linked to a couple of times now and do a search for "temporary protection visa".

If you click on the words "temporary protection visa" in this post then it will take you to a page on the parliamentary library about TPVs.

If you click on "Department Infrastructure Manager at Woomera" it will take you to testimony from said person to the Human Rights Commission (the bits most relevant are points 12. and 13.

If you click on "1923 children were in immigration detention" it will take you to a different page from the HRC. What you want is the section called "Children In Detention", specifically table 8.2.

If you click on "1563 children" you will be taken to a website set up about SIEV X which has summarised this DIMIA fact sheet into a nice table.

If you click on "up to 3721 people" you will be taken to the boat arrivals page from the parliamentary library that you already know about.

The last link is to the Senate Select Committee report that you're bitching about.

And after you've done that you should re-read that post again and you'll see that I mentioned the relevant points in my post and linked back to those so people can see I'm not making **** up, I believe they're called citations.

OK, I have honestly tried to find what you are talking about via the above instructions and have been unable to locate it. I also went back to the original document you provided (here)

http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/maritime_incident_ctte/report/report.pdf

and did some searches, and was again unable to locate what you are suggesting is there.

It is not that I totally disbelieve you, I just can't find what you seem to be stating: i.e. that TPVs are a pull factor.

But the boats that are turned around aren't going to Nauru, they're going to Indonesia which is about as bad. And considering that you were going on about how Malaysia haven't signed the Refugee convention I'm a little amazed that you're so willing to send people back to another country that hasn't signed it either.

They will sign it tomorrow. And in the past - unlike Malaysia, we had a lot of control there. But thanks too for pointing out Gillard's abject hypocrisy on this issue of being a signatory to the refugee convention. Are you aware that the punishment for being a refugee in Malaysia can include caning?
 
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Refugees beaten in Indonesia, the place Abbott will turn the boats around to.

http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/11/22/beaten-and-bruised-graphic-photos-of-a-detention-escapee/

Crikey has obtained graphic photos of a beaten asylum seeker sent from within an Indonesian detention centre. The photos, which were taken by a fellow detainee inside Kupang detention centre, have been passed on to the UNHCR and immigration officials in Canberra and Jakarta but so far there has been no official response.
The badly bruised man is an Iraqi asylum seeker, who was apparently bashed for trying to escape from Kupang. A fellow detainee, who has since been released, took the photos and passed them on to refugee advocates. He told advocates that the bashing was not an unusual occurrance.


Deported refugees from Australia to Sri Lanka beaten and killed.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1260562/deported-sri-lankans-beaten-and-killed

Sri Lankan asylum seekers deported from Australia have been beaten and killed, a refugee support organisation says.
Their investigation found nine people died after being sent back under the Howard Government and others returned in the last year have been assaulted and imprisoned.
 
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