Australia

[Sideroxylon]

Anzac Day is a pretty quiet affair in Ankara. The 26th of April isn't remembered by Turks though I understand more and more locals have been joining us at Anzac Cove. I am embarrassed to say that I have never been to the battlefield despite my 10 years here. (Better rectify that this year.) Over here the battle is remembered on the 18th of March, which was the main naval battle and an Ottoman victory. The battle of Çanakkale, as the Turks, know it, is seen as a proud victory with great losses but it hasn't the same importance to them as it does us. Many young people don't know much about what happened there in the detail that the average Aussie might, though the good will the Anzacs showed their ancestors lives on. To the Turks it was just one battle in a series that went through the Turkish War of Independence as they fought to keep the Anatolian homeland from being carved up by the Allies.

Might turn the telly on and catch the ceremonies on the evening news.

 

[MG1962]

It also has be remember Turkeys history is extremely long and full of great victories and sad defeats. For Australians and New Zealanders it was our first invitation to the big dance

 

[gumboot]

It also has be remember Turkeys history is extremely long and full of great victories and sad defeats. For Australians and New Zealanders it was our first invitation to the big dance

Quite true. And you have to consider the scale of involvement for our much smaller more isolated nations.

Almost half of all eligible men in NZ served in WWI, and over half of those who served were killed or wounded.

What's pertinent here is that the shadow of WWI was so dark and so far-reaching that it's the horror of the loss of an entire generation that remained on the national conscience, not celebration of eventually winning the war (November 11 is barely observed here). ANZAC Day marks the beginning of the slaughter, hence it's importance to us as a day of grief.

In contrast, historically memorial days were much more about celebration of victory. Reflection on loss has always played a role, but it's only more recently in most places that it has become the dominant feature.

(And ironically, in Australia ANZAC Day has done the reverse and in recent times has become almost a celebration of National identity, particularly amongst the youth)

 

[Akhenaten]

Go Jesse!

I find this image both inspiring and nerve-wracking.

You go girl!

Woohoo!

 

[bit_pattern]

Australia. The oldest known human history outside of Africa.

Lest we forget.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Australia. The oldest known human history outside of Africa.

Lest we forget.

Most of us have. Short term memory loss and all that.

 

[bit_pattern]

Yes, that's why we allow people to live and die in third world conditions in this country, while the rest of us live like kings in a first world paradise. We glorify military escapades for foreign imperial powers but don't even remember the oldest, richest living culture on the planet. Where are all the cenotaphs for those who died in their thousands during the Black Wars as we brutally colonised this country?

Like Jared Diamond points out in 'Collapse', we are a strip-mining culture, we don't have the knowledge or ability to ever live sustainably on this continent, we rely entirely on our connections with the rest of the world just to survive, and like every strip-mining society that preceded us, we too will collapse in on ourselves at some point in the not too distant future.

There's not a lot of to be proud of in being "Australian".

 

[Lolly]

There's not a lot of to be proud of in being "Australian".

You're free to leave any time you like....

 

[lionking]

Yes, that's why we allow people to live in third world conditions in this country, while the rest of us live in a first world paradise. We glorify military escapades for foreign imperial powers but don't even remember the oldest, richest living culture on the planet. Where are all the cenotaphs for those who died in their thousands during the Black Wars as we brutally colonised this country?

Like Jared Diamond points out in 'Collapse', we are a strip-mining culture, we don't have the knowledge or ability to ever live sustainably on this continent, we rely entirely on our connections with the rest of the world just to survive, and like every strip-mining society that preceded us, we too will collapse in ourselves at some point in the not too distant future.

There's not a lot of to be proud of in being "Australian".

Wow, is this a serious post? The oldest, richest living culture? A culture characterised by tribal warfare and brutalisation, which didn't even invent the wheel? I could name about, oh a hundred "richer" cultures.

We are a strip mining culture? Yes, we have mines but to describe this as our "culture" is rubbish.

Finally, what is wrong with relying on our connections with the rest of the world? And please give us an estimate of our demise in the not too distant future.

Soooo much wrong with this post.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Yes, that's why we allow people to live and die in third world conditions in this country, while the rest of us live like kings in a first world paradise.
There's not a lot of to be proud of in being "Australian".

OK pal, why don't you tell us what you have been doing about it? What field of work you are in and the first hand understanding you have of this?

I imagine the thunder of silence to follow.

 

[bit_pattern]

What, you mean other than working for the last 6 years as an anthropologist in remote communities?

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Cool, anthropologist doing what exactly?
And how would you suggest we go about "fixing" this little problem you know soooo much about?

 

[lionking]

What, you mean other than working for the last 6 years as an anthropologist in remote communities?

Assuming this is correct (which I don't automatically accept) please justify the "oldest, richest living culture" assertion.

 

[bit_pattern]

Wow, is this a serious post? The oldest, richest living culture?

A culture characterised by tribal warfare and brutalisation, which didn't even invent the wheel? I could name about, oh a hundred "richer" cultures.

Yes, human history, like the history of any species, is littered with barbarities. Human history is rich with good and bad, that's part of the rich tapestry that is human existence. You might have a culturally absolutist view of the world but in reality humans evolve and adapt to their circumstances, say what you like about indigenous cultures, at least they knew how to live sustainably on their land and didn't invent such wonderful cultural constructs such as industrial-scale warfare and nuclear arsenals. And you're kidding yourself if you think our culture isn't charcterised by tribal warfare and brutalisation. The only difference is that we developed technologies to do it on a far, far great scale. Just ask the 100,000 odd Iraqi's we killed in this decade alone what they think about our superior culture.

We are a strip mining culture? Yes, we have mines but to describe this as our "culture" is rubbish.

You'd probably be well served by reading the book in question. We strip mine ALL of our resources, from minerals right down to agriculture. Our "bread basket", the Murray Darling is already on the verge of collapse, and we strip mined the agricultural potential of our top-soil a long time ago, so much so that we no longer grow staple crops in top soil, the land is little more than a substrate into which we pour energy intensive fertilisers in order to get anything to grow at all. We strip mine our forests, our soil, our minerals, our fishing grounds etc etc etc. And this land is very, very poor in terms of geological renewal. It is an old, tired land, that simply won't sustain this sort of degradation for much longer. There is a very good reason that Aboriginals never invented the wheel, the land can't sustain high populations that require the sort of societal organisation that leads to such technological developments

Finally, what is wrong with relying on our connections with the rest of the world? And please give us an estimate of our demise in the not too distant future.

Soooo much wrong with this post.

Nothing is wrong with it, per se, but it is not sustainable, and once the environment gives us the old heave-ho then all the connections in the world won't save us.

As for time scale, I don't know, maybe it will be a century or two into the future, maybe it will be sooner. But remember, there is ample evidence of societies that existed longer than we have who were permanently wiped from the pages of history once their environments could no longer sustain them. I'd look into the histories of Greenland and Easter Island if you want some historical parallels.

 

[bit_pattern]

Cool, anthropologist doing what exactly?
And how would you suggest we go about "fixing" this little problem you know soooo much about?

Well, in that respect, I'd start by providing equitable services to black communities that we offer to white communities of similar scale. Basic ****, like municipal libraries, swimming pools, rubbish collection, sanitation etc. etc. etc. would go a LONG way to closing the gap.

And, I'm not an anthropologist, I was taking the piss. Forgot the smiley. I grew up in regional Australia, I've traveled extensively in the top end, I have had my share of experience when it comes to black communities. But you don't need "first hand experience" to know that there is something terribly wrong when a minority in society lives in third world conditions when the rest of us live like kings, when they die at third world standards of age and die from curable disease.

Australia is thick with a pervasive blame the victim mentality when it comes to out indigenous populations. Until we come to terms with our history, the good AND the bad, and own the horrors that we inflicted in taking this land from its original inhabitants then we can never hold our heads up as a mature and self sustaining society. This is much more important that worshiping militarism and thinking that's what defines us as a nation. In my humble opinion, of course.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

There is a very good reason that Aboriginals never invented the wheel, the land can't sustain high populations that require the sort of societal organisation that leads to such technological developments

You are entitled to your opinions in your post, most of which I don't agree with but I just can't let this one through:
You are telling us that our indegenous never invented the wheel, because why? The land decided for them that they couldn't have it?

They could invent various other tools - including a returning stick but they couldn't figure out round?

Clearly I am misunderstanding something, could you please explain this statement to us a little further.

 

[lionking]

Wow again, where to start.

Just ask the 100,000 odd Iraqi's we killed in this decade alone what they think about our superior culture.

Who is this "we".

You'd probably be well served by reading the book in question

What on earth makes you believe I haven't?

There is a very good reason that Aboriginals never invented the wheel, the land can't sustain high populations that require the sort of societal organisation that leads to such technological developments

This is an assertion unworthy of an "anthropoligist".

And still no support for your other assertion about the "oldest, richest living culture". Major fail.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Well, in that respect, I'd start by providing equitable services to black communities that we offer to white communities of similar scale. Basic ****, like municipal libraries, swimming pools, rubbish collection, sanitation etc. etc. etc. would go a LONG way to closing the gap.

Great idea.
And once we have provided these 'white' services to the 'black' communities, how do you keep the ones happy who want traditional lifestyle?

And, I'm not an anthropologist, I was taking the piss. Forgot the smiley.

Hmmm.

I grew up in regional Australia, I've traveled extensively in the top end, I have had my share of experience when it comes to black communities. But you don't need "first hand experience" to know that there is something terribly wrong when a minority of society lives in third world conditions when the rest of us live like kings.

Yet you talk rather like an inner city activist rather than someone who has actually spent time in "black communities".

And Australia is thick with a pervasive blame the victim mentality when it comes to out indigenous populations.

So you are saying the 'whites' blame the indegenous for their circumstances and the indigenous play the victim?

Until we come to terms with our history, the good AND the bad, and own the horrors that we inflicted in taking this land from its original inhabitants then we can never hold our heads up as a mature and self sustaining society. In my humble opinion.

What do you mean here specifically?

 

[lionking]

And, I'm not an anthropologist, I was taking the piss.

Lying is a real smart way of gaining credibility around here.

 

[bit_pattern]

Wow again, where to start.



Who is this "we".

By "we", I mean the coalition of the willing, that Australia supported, both morally and pragmatically, without question. Or the "we" that dropped more tonnes of explosives over Laos and Cambodia during illegal incursions, in which Australian forces were directly involved. I guess I mean the imperial "we" that we hitch our horse to time and time again. Or the "we" that nearly exterminated an entire race of people in our quest to conquer the land upon which we live.

What on earth makes you believe I haven't?

The fact that you didn't understand the point I was making about strip mining our resources, and the fact that you automatically assumed I was talking about minerals. Not that its a bad assumption to make, I didn't enunciate clearly what I was getting at, but the fact that I had to explain it suggests that you hadn't read the work I was referencing.

This is an assertion unworthy of an "anthropoligist".

I'm not an anthropologist, as I explained after your post, I was taking the piss. Forgive my irreverence.

And still no support for your other assertion about the "oldest, richest living culture". Major fail.

Well, no, the only fail here would be your failure to address, well, ANY of my points. The longevity alone is worthy of the claim to richness. You might like to deny the darker side of the human species, and live in a cotton-wool balloon where the nasty things in the world don't penetrate, but as I've already pointed out, you living in la-la land if you think that "we" are any less brutal or tribal than our Aboriginal brethren.