Australia

[Akhenaten]

One group who do often get overlooked in this campaign are the Indian troops. Although they were not put on the line very much, they suffered horendous losses in their logistics roles.

Yes, this group have been largely overlooked, however, Bruce the Thread™ overlooks nothing and will now correct this situation.



There's a bit more detail to add to your statement above about the Indians having a logistic rather than fighting rôle at Gallipoli.

The only Indian formation to fight in the Gallipoli campaign was the 29th Indian Brigade. They arrived on the peninsula on 1 May 1915.


from:

The History of British India: a chronology
By John F. Riddick

Published by Greenwood Publishing Group, 2006
ISBN 0313322805, 9780313322808


(This is from a really, truly book, so no linkies I'm afraid)

26 Apr. 1915. The 29th Indian Brigade left Egypt for action at Gallipoli, landing at Cape Helles on May 1. The Brigade fought almost continuously until July 10, when it was withdrawn for relief and refitting.

7-31 Aug. 1915. The 29th Indian Brigade joined ANZAC forces in the attack on Sari Bair Ridge in an attempt to cut off the Turkish Army on the Gallipoli Peninsula from Constantinople. With the operation's failure, the 29th Brigade withdrew and went to Suez for a defensive assignment on the Suez Canal.

This statement misses an important development in the Gallipoli campaign.

It was only decided AFTER the arrival of the 29th Brigade that since the 69th and 89th Punjabi Battalions consisted partly of Muslims, they could not be relied upon to attack the Turks. Please note that this was a (British) command decision, and not one taken by the brave Indians soldiers themselves.

These battalions were assigned to Lines of Communication work, which reduced the fighting strength of the Brigade by a quarter.


The Battle of Sari Bair (Kocaçimentepe)

The attack from the Anzac perimeter was directed against two peaks of the Sari Bair range; Chunuk Bair and Hill 971. Under the overall command of Major-General Alexander Godley, the attacking force included the New Zealand and Australian Division, the British 13th Division plus a couple of extra infantry brigades.

The plan was for two assaulting columns to march out of Anzac on the night of 6 August. The right-hand column, comprising the New Zealand Infantry Brigade under Brigadier-General Francis Johnston, would head for Chunuk Bair. The left-hand column, commanded by Major-General Vaughn Cox, heading for Hill 971 and neighbouring Hill Q, contained the Australian 4th Infantry Brigade of Brigadier-General John Monash and Cox's 29th Indian Brigade. Both objectives were expected to be captured by dawn.

They weren't. Johnny Turk held firm, and his counter attack cleared the peninsula of enemies altogether.
Despite the loss, the battle was the setting for the famous, and tragically futile, attack of the 3rd Light Horse Brigade.


The Battle of The Nek

. . . a deed of self-sacrificing bravery which has never been surpassed in military history - the charge of the Australian Light Horse into certain death at the call of their comrades need during a crisis in the greatest battle that has ever been fought on Turkish soil . . .

Subsequent to Sari Bair, the 29th Indian Brigade also took part in the Battle of Hill 60 on 21 August, again alongside the ANZACs.


The Battle of Hill 60

With the major battle effectively lost, the British commanders turned their attention to consolidating their meagre gains. With Hill 971 out of reach, Hill 60 appeared an attainable objective. The attacking force was based on General John Monash's Australian 4th Infantry Brigade, which had spearheaded the advance on Hill 971 and had taken up positions in a gully, now known as Australia Valley, that led towards Hill 60. Also involved were the remnants of the 29th Indian Brigade, two regiments of the New Zealand Mounted Rifles Brigade (Canterbury and Otago) and three British New Army battalions.

As pointed out, however, casualties were by no means limited to the front line troops, and the losses suffered by the Indians assigned to logistic tasks were indeed horrendous. The fact is, the somewhat euphemistically named "rear" areas at Gallipoli were in many cases only yards from the actual front line.


Here are some Indian Soldiers at Gallipoli, being logistical:

Te Ara Encyclopedia of New Zealand



Indian casualties at Gallipoli were 1,358 killed and 3,421 wounded. That leaves maybe a few dozen who made it through unscathed.


These are members of the the Australian Light Horse on their Walers.

Wiki Commons



I had a bit of trouble researching this one. Any correction/additions are welcomed, as always.


Cheers,

Dave

 

[Akhenaten]

The Far Shore No I haven't read it. Many of the snippets come down as family stories and in most cases are true, perhaps slanted a bit with time.

I haven't read The Far Shore either. In fact, I'd never heard of it until I found it in the NLA catalogue My local library is closed for Easter, so I can't comment on it further at the moment. Perhaps SimonD will share if we ask nicely.

I understand where your stories come from Bob, and that's what gives them value. As for truth, well, I don't recall that you've had too many posts refuted in this thread, so I'd say you're doing at least as well as I am

My Grand Parents lived in Harrietville (little gold town NE Victoria) A Beveridge woman (of the Beveridge Brothers - Kidmans of Victoria) used to feed and shelter Ned Kelly. He would come in after dark get fed, clothes washed and have a sleep, then take off before dawn. The whole town knew except the copper. He rode through the mountains out of sight. (no dobbers then)

There are some kewl links in the above quotation. I hope the people enjoy following them.

Harrietville is beautiful during Autumn. (Fall, for the seppos ) I might grab my camera and go take some photos to post for you.

Beveridge is only 25 km (15 mi) from my Royal Palace, on the way to Melbourne, and I've been known to call in at the Hunter's Tryst for a pint of Guinness after a hard day's shopping. Some friends of mine were married there some years ago, and I recall drinking some Guinness that day too.

Your story of Ned Kelly is exactly as I know it, both from anecdotes and reading up on it. There's a link in the above quote that will do for now, but I reckon old Ned and his adventures will feature prominently in the thread eventually.

My Grand Parents eloped, walking from Omeo to Harrietville over the mountains. The highest - Mt Bogong, 6508 ft (1896 m), and Mt Hotham, 6306 ft (1861 m) 80 miles (48 km). One horse two people and a rifle, no roads then.

That's an incredibly tough journey, and shows just how bloody determined our pioneers were. You have every right to be proud of your heritage, Old Bob.

Not that it matters, but we live south of Gympie at North Arm, only 60 klicks (36 mi) down the road. Call our place "Casper Downs" but thats another story.

It doesn't have to matter, it's interesting stuff and I'm loving it.

I don't know North Arm at all, so I'm looking forward to hearing that story too. Talk about whatever comes to mind in your own time, China. Life's too short to rush.

Must thank Dave from us all for the pictures and info. (My computer hates me)

That's the only advantage I have over you As it is, though, we make a good team. Your thanks is much appreciated.


Cheers Mate,

Dave


PS Bob, don't worry about posting off-topic. You are, I am, we are Australian, and anything we discuss is going to be well within my topic.

Even the campfire yarns

 

[Akhenaten]

The beenleigh rum distillery was knocked down due to termite infestation,

Luckily some other mob bought the name and built new premises on the grounds behind that and is producing the rum now.

Its a lot better than the former eye-watering, throat-burning, so-called liquid.
(oh, how i miss it )

OH NOES!!eleven! That's tragic.

I wonder if termites ever get as pissed as crickets.


Yes, Beenleigh sorted the men from the boys alright. And teh sheilas couldn't get far enough away to start with

Do I correctly recall a wheat-beer brewery at Beenleigh? And a lion park at Yatala?


Cheers,

Dave

 

[SimonD]

I haven't read The Far Shore either. In fact, I'd never heard of it until found it in the NLA catalogue My local library is closed for Easter, so I can't comment on it further at the moment. Perhaps SimonD will share if we ask nicely.

It's a big book and sometimes a little dry. What I loved about it was all the accounts, from British government letters and orders, to diary entries from convicts, as well as accounts from the local aborigines. It is an all encompassing record of the first settlement. It has been awhile since I read it, but you are welcome to ask any question you like and I'll look it up.

 

[Old Bob]

Over proof rum, the telecom blokes had a deal going with the suppliers and we used to get it for peanuts off them, beautiful stuff. One war cementry at Adelaide River,think about 400 Ks south of Darwin is a emotion filled experience, some of our finest youths lay in the beautiful kept grounds. I never checked but think it's on a ley line by the feel of the place, still have to grit my teeth when I think of them. A bead tree grows there(seeds bright glossy red and hard ) The second WW soldiers done us proud too. I still have a few 303 rounds from WW1 and the PTB arn't getting them, not the cases anyway.Most of the thing we talk of are never seen by tourist, pity. Comming back to central Qld, Winton a great place what with it's Matilda display and all the dino bits worth a look then one can go to Lark Quarry about 45 Ks out and see the imprints in the rock(once mud) of a big mother chasing a mob of little ones. Could be were the Bunip stories come from.

 

[lionking]

Despite the loss, the battle was the setting for the famous, and tragically futile, attack of the 3rd Light Horse Brigade.


I had a bit of trouble researching this one. Any correction/additions are welcomed, as always.


Cheers,

Dave

No corrections, but you have just reminded me that my grandfather and his brothers were in the Light Horse Brigade, but served in Egypt and France (IIRC). I always thought that my father was BSing me (not for the first time) about the history of my grandfather - being shunned by the local Catholic Church when he turned up after the war wearing his slouch hat etc - until I was given photographs of him and his brothers in uniform, young and innocent, before getting on the boat and also seeing his letters from the front.

The courage of these men fighting a war with so little relevance to the security of Australia is awe-inspiring. Although I'm not sure he served there, I am determined to visit Villers-Bretonneux before I turn up my toes.

 

[Old Bob]

Sorry if I'm hogging the thread but to explain Breveridge brothers a bit better. They were two old cattle men in NE victoria and it was there mother who looked after Ned Kelly. They owned large tacts of land and took cattle up to the high plains every summer, hard tough bush men. I remenber them as old men and Siddy Breveridge told me stories as a kid. One story was of a pack of dingo's that tried to pull his horse down on the high plains. There main home was in the Buckland(near Porepunkah) and when Siddy was 80 he was still rounding up cattle on the high country,(not only his own) but by then most were trucked down so Siddy got the last load on it way then nugged his horse and took three days to ride home sleeping in the saddle. The horse knew the way home. Saddly the stupid greenie Gov. have stopped the cattle grazing rights so now it's a huge fire hazard. They would sell three rail trucks of cattle a week to Melbourne but only two went on the books. My Uncle swapped a 45 colt for a 303 which got handed down to me when I could just pick it up. Loved shooting rabbits with it using dumb dumbs.(Why am I deaf?) Don't know if the town of Beveridge was named from there family? maybe.

 

[MG1962]

The courage of these men fighting a war with so little relevance to the security of Australia is awe-inspiring. Although I'm not sure he served there, I am determined to visit Villers-Bretonneux before I turn up my toes.

Here is a link showing the long memory the French have of the battle fought there, and their continuing respect for the efforts of the Australian forces during the battle

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-memorials/vill-bret-memorial.htm

The worst battle Australian forces took part in was here

http://www.eurekacouncil.com.au/5-Australia-History/History-Pages/1916-Battle-of-fromelles.htm

On one section of the battlefield 400 Australians died in an area the size of tennis court

And Lionking I am with you. I know we are poducts of a different era, but I often wonder if I would have had the guts to go through what these boys did. I honestly dont know, but more importantly I hope I never have to find out

 

[arthwollipot]

*And is that really the Koori (didn't know that politically correct term before this morning -- thanks!) name for the land?

Let me assure you - "Koori" is merely the name for one tribe of indiginous Australians. Try calling a Yolngu man a Koori and you'll see what a woomera is all about.

 

[arthwollipot]

With the help of Google Maps a while back, I calculated that it is possible to drive around the continent/country/island in approximately nine days of driving time. Is that actually possible, or are there sections of roads that are non-existent?

I think that's an extremely optimistic estimate. Consider that Australia has approximately the same land area as the Continental United States (but with only 10% of the population) - I don't think nine days would be enough.

 

[arthwollipot]

G'donyer bloke...

ba boww! Sorry Jeff, but "bloke" is not something you would ever call someone to his face. "Mate" or "Cobber" I'll accept on historical/cultural grounds, but you always refer to "a bloke" or "that bloke", and never use it as a substitute name for someone you're talking to.

 

[MG1962]

I think that's an extremely optimistic estimate. Consider that Australia has approximately the same land area as the Continental United States (but with only 10% of the population) - I don't think nine days would be enough.

Well doing a couple of calculations - guesstimates really - this is what I came up with

Cooktown to Brisbane = 2 day

Brisbane to Sydney = 1 day

Sydney to Melbourne = 1 day

Melbourne to Adelaide = 1 day

Adelaide to Perth = 2 days

Thats a total of 7 days, and you are only two thirds the way around, with easily the worst part of the trip in front of you

 

[arthwollipot]

I should have checked more carefully before I made my somewhat sweeping statement.

Mmmm. One of my housemates is an executive at the Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies and if he'd heard you using "koori" to refer to all indigenous Australians, he'd have given you what for.

This.

 

[arthwollipot]

Mum and Dad and Denny saw the passing out parade at Puckapunyal
It was a long march from cadets
The sixth battalion was the next to tour
and it was me who drew the card
We did Canungra and Shoalwater before we left

And Townsville lined the footpaths as we marched to the quay
This clipping from the paper shows us young and strong and clean
And theres me in my slouch hat with my SLR and greens
God help me, I was only nineteen


From Vung Tau riding chinooks to the dust at Nui Dat
I'd been in and out of choppers now for months
But we made our tents a home, VB, and pinups on the lockers
And an Asian orange sunset though the scrub

And can you tell me doctor why I still can't get to sleep
And why night time's just a jungle dark and a barking M16
And what's this rash that comes and goes can you tell me what it means
God help me, I was only nineteen


A four week operation every step could be your last one
on two legs; it was a war within yourself
But you wouldnt let your mates down till they had you dusted off
so you closed your eyes and thought about something else

Then someone yelled out "contact" and a bloke behind me swore
We hooked in there for hours then a god almighty roar
Frankie kicked a mine the day that mankind kicked the moon
God help me, he was going home in June


I can still see Frankie lying drinking tinnies in the Grand Hotel
On a thirty six hour rec leave in Vung Tau
And I can still see Frankie lying screaming in the jungle
till the morphine came and killed the bloody row

And the Anzac legends didn't mention mud and blood and tears
And the stories that my father told me never seemed quite real
I caught some pieces in my back that I didnt even feel
God help me, I was only nineteen


And can you tell me doctor why I still cant get to sleep
And why the channel seven chopper chills me to my feet
And whats this rash that comes and goes can you tell me what it means
God help me, I was only nineteen...

 

[Jeff Corey]

Mmmm. One of my housemates is an executive at the Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies and if he'd heard you using "koori" to refer to all indigenous Australians, he'd have given you what for.

This.

"A stoush has erupted between two indigenous groups over the traditional ownership of Canberra."
A "stoush"? Wot's that, all then? Rhyming slang from "A boot in the toush"?

 

[MG1962]

"A stoush has erupted between two indigenous groups over the traditional ownership of Canberra."
A "stoush"? Wot's that, all then? Rhyming slang from "A boot in the toush"?

It is the same as a biff

 

[Akhenaten]

Let me assure you - "Koori" is merely the name for one tribe of indiginous Australians. Try calling a Yolngu man a Koori and you'll see what a woomera is all about.

Mmmm. One of my housemates is an executive at the Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies and if he'd heard you using "koori" to refer to all indigenous Australians, he'd have given you what for.

This.

Yes, thank you for that. Mobyseven has already pointed this out to me.

...in south-eastern Australia. Not everywhere.

To which I responded:

I should have checked more carefully before I made my somewhat sweeping statement.


From the KOORI PRACTICE CHECKLIST published by

Ngwala Willumbong Co-operative Ltd

93 Wellington Street, St Kilda, Victoria 3182

Ph: (03) 9510 3233
Fax: (03) 9510 6288
Email: info@ngwala.org

Terms Used To Describe Indigenous People & Services

The term “Koori” has been used throughout this document in reference to indigenous people and services in Victoria. The term Koori is not intended to exclude Aboriginal & Torres Strait Islander people from other parts of Australia. Equally the use of the terms Aboriginal and/or Indigenous is intended to be inclusive of all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people throughout Australia.

Ngwala Willumbong Co-operative Ltd also acknowledges that the word “koori” can be offensive to some groups and individuals of the Aboriginal & Torres Strait Islander community.

Ngwala Willumbong Co-operative Ltd would like to acknowledge that the Department of Human Services has funded this project.

I appreciate your correction of this error and invite continuing scrutiny of my posts.


Cheers,

Dave

Red added by me for this post.



Further, I might point to this:

The Koori Mail

What are those words under the Title?



They were written by these people:

Board

Each of the Directors represents one of five Aboriginal organisations that share ownership of the Koori Mail.

These organisations are:

Bunjum Co-operative (Cabbage Tree Island)
Buyinbin Inc (Casino)
Kurrachee Co-operative (Coraki)
Bundjalung Tribal Society (Lismore) and
Nungera Co-operative (Maclean).


These are all centres on the north coast of New South Wales, Australia. Each of the organisations has a 20 per cent interest, making the Koori Mail 100 per cent Aboriginal-owned and controlled.

Red added by me.


How dare they!

Apparently the government endorses this offensive behaviour as well, because I note this on the website of the National Native Title Tribunal

The Koori Mail is a fortnightly newspaper focusing on national Indigenous issues. Each month Tribunal president Graeme Neate or another Tribunal representative contributes a column titled Native title and you. The columns outline key determinations, themes and issues relating to native title.

Red added by me.


So, I may be a bit confused, it seems.


Do I need Yolngu man to come and show me what a woomera is all about?

I don't think so.


Do I need a public servant to come down from Canberra and give me what for?

I don't think so.


Do I need some helpful advice from those who have spent more time in the bush than me?

Yes, constantly.



Here is a quote from The Koorie Heritage Trust

"Gnokan Danna MurraKor-ki", is the motto of the Trust and is the combination of two Koorie languages and means "Give me your hand my friend"

 

[Akhenaten]

"Is that you me old china? Strewth cobber, it's good to see yer ugly mug again!

No wuckers over here about coppin' any pony. I don't Adam we've even got a moderator.

G'donyer bloke, yer blood's worth bottlin', fair effin dinkum".

Stolen from a china on another toga.

ba boww! Sorry Jeff, but "bloke" is not something you would ever call someone to his face. "Mate" or "Cobber" I'll accept on historical/cultural grounds, but you always refer to "a bloke" or "that bloke", and never use it as a substitute name for someone you're talking to.

Post #122

"Is that you me old china? Strewth cobber, it's good to see yer ugly mug again!

No wuckers over here about coppin' any pony. I don't Adam we've even got a moderator.

G'donyer bloke, yer blood's worth bottlin', fair effin dinkum".

Stolen from a china on another toga.

I spot three English cockney rhyming slangs in there. Me old China.

This is a conundrum! Jeff is actually quoting ME from another thread.


Allow me an explanation.


Jeff is currently learning to speak proper 'Strayan. I am helping him, but so is another, who is a Pomgolian.

Jeff will be trilingual soon, or maybe even quadriligual, since I believe he already speaks New York City as well as English.

Apart from the above, I must point out that there's a great commonality in the rhyming slang of the UK and Australia, due to our British heritage. Some of the terms you will see may be anachronsims in Australia, but I understand them in the majority of cases, and Google is my cobber.

I hasten to assure readers that nobody in Australia, the UK, or NYC speaks the way Jeff and I do here.


Cheers and well spotted, China,

Dave

Red added by me for this post.


Jeff was quoting ME, as I had addressed HIM in another conversation.

"G'day Bloke!" is a greeting I normally use with my closer mates, particularly at an unexpected encounter. If the chap happened to be offended, I'm sure he'd let me know, but the truth is, most fellers I know use the same expression. Some of my cobbers say "Yo, Dude!" and some of my other buddies say "'Owyergoinyerwanka!"

YMMV

 

[Akhenaten]

It's a big book and sometimes a little dry. What I loved about it was all the accounts, from British government letters and orders, to diary entries from convicts, as well as accounts from the local aborigines. It is an all encompassing record of the first settlement. It has been awhile since I read it, but you are welcome to ask any question you like and I'll look it up.

Terrific! Consider yourself a resource.


Cheers

Dave

 

[Akhenaten]

No corrections, but you have just reminded me that my grandfather and his brothers were in the Light Horse Brigade, but served in Egypt and France (IIRC). I always thought that my father was BSing me (not for the first time) about the history of my grandfather - being shunned by the local Catholic Church when he turned up after the war wearing his slouch hat etc - until I was given photographs of him and his brothers in uniform, young and innocent, before getting on the boat and also seeing his letters from the front.

The courage of these men fighting a war with so little relevance to the security of Australia is awe-inspiring. Although I'm not sure he served there, I am determined to visit Villers-Bretonneux before I turn up my toes.

Thank you lionking. It seems that little snippets of our individual stories are starting to weave a bit of a tapestry out of our thread.

Are you able to post a couple of photographs for us?

If your grandfather enlisted in Victoria he likeley belonged to the 4th, 8th, (possibly the 9th) or 13th Regiments of Light Horse.

These unts trained just up the road from where I am now.


Here's a picture of the training area, then and now, stolen from my very own website.

I have more information on the Light Horse (LH), which I can post if you're interested.

Here's a good site for reading up on the Victorian Regiments.


THE AUSTRALIAN LIGHT HORSE
VICTORIAN REGIMENTS

The 4th, 8th, (part of the 9th) and 13th Regiments of Light Horse were raised in Victoria. Machine Gun Squadrons formed part of each Light Horse Regiment. Part of the 3rd MG Squadron (attached to the 3rd Light Horse Brigade, ANZAC Mounted Division) and part of 4th MG Squadron (attached to 4th Australian Light Horse Brigade, Australian Mounted Division) comprised Victorians.

The Light Horse Regiments are still in service, only these days their horses are made of steel. They form part of the Army Reserve (ARES) with much the same function as ever. The last time mob I worked with were from XLH in Western Australia, and I'm just glad they were on my side.

I believe most of the Victorian LH would have ended up as 2nd Cavalry Regiment (2CAV), now based in Darwin, and Afghanistan, and Iraq, and Somalia and East Timor . . . They get around, they do.


I hope you get to Villers-Bretonneux. I have a similar mission planned, to England, where my uncle was detached to the Pathfinders, losing his life in the North Sea.


Cheers.

Dave