TillEulenspiegel
Master Poster
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Cleo, perhaps OOT but was there a final outcome of the Raul Wallenberg case?
Did he die in the gulag?
To lazy to google
Did he die in the gulag?
To lazy to google
I join Cleon, Renata and others:
…oseh sholom bimromov, hu yaaseh sholom oleinu val-col-yisroel, vimru omein.
I don’t know how to say Kaddish for six million people. It becomes so painful as to lose all meaning. I decided to say it for just one person, that I know from my most treasured possession, the family Stammbaum (I am from a German Jewish family).
The book was compiled in 1953. It lists the descendents of the ancestral couple, who married in 1818 in Furth. It is difficult to read even the summary statistics without weeping. Anyway, of the 381 descendents and spouses who had died between 1818 and 1953, 80 were victims of the Nazis. Their biographies at the back of the book end with the words: ‘murdered by Nazis’. The book points out that this is a remarkably low figure, due to our relatively high economic status and educational level in early 20th century Germany:
‘The explanation for this rather low quota of casualties lies doubtlessly with the conscious Jewish attitude of most members of the family, which caused their early emigration, though the economic, climactic and, above all, the psychological difficulties, connected with each immigration, were enormous.’
The person I remembered today is mentioned in the summary, in a list of some representative members of the family:
‘a nine year old child, who, after the murder of his parents, died a lonely death from starvation in a Nazi concentration camp’.
I have searched the book and I know the name and date of birth of this child, and precisely how we are related. The date of his death is not known. What is especially tragic is that his family escaped from Germany in 1938 to Brussels, then went to the south of France, and were later deported to be murdered by the Nazis. A lot of my family suffered a similar fate, because no country wished to help them (though many, many individuals did).
My sister and I aren’t in the book as we weren’t born then, but my mother and my grandmother are, and they are not history to me. Their whole lives were darkened by the terrible fate of their German relatives, and especially by their failure to save more of those who appealed for help. They did everything that was humanly possible, and they succeeded in some cases. (I am grateful for the life of my cousin and dear friend D, through her parents, although none of her grandparents could be saved.) The shadow passed to us, and to our children. It is impossible that my nineteen-year-old son can forget about the Holocaust, the slaughter of our family and the attempt to exterminate us all.
But we are Jews. Why should the rest of you bother to remember?
…oseh sholom bimromov, hu yaaseh sholom oleinu val-col-yisroel, vimru omein.
I don’t know how to say Kaddish for six million people. It becomes so painful as to lose all meaning. I decided to say it for just one person, that I know from my most treasured possession, the family Stammbaum (I am from a German Jewish family).
The book was compiled in 1953. It lists the descendents of the ancestral couple, who married in 1818 in Furth. It is difficult to read even the summary statistics without weeping. Anyway, of the 381 descendents and spouses who had died between 1818 and 1953, 80 were victims of the Nazis. Their biographies at the back of the book end with the words: ‘murdered by Nazis’. The book points out that this is a remarkably low figure, due to our relatively high economic status and educational level in early 20th century Germany:
‘The explanation for this rather low quota of casualties lies doubtlessly with the conscious Jewish attitude of most members of the family, which caused their early emigration, though the economic, climactic and, above all, the psychological difficulties, connected with each immigration, were enormous.’
The person I remembered today is mentioned in the summary, in a list of some representative members of the family:
‘a nine year old child, who, after the murder of his parents, died a lonely death from starvation in a Nazi concentration camp’.
I have searched the book and I know the name and date of birth of this child, and precisely how we are related. The date of his death is not known. What is especially tragic is that his family escaped from Germany in 1938 to Brussels, then went to the south of France, and were later deported to be murdered by the Nazis. A lot of my family suffered a similar fate, because no country wished to help them (though many, many individuals did).
My sister and I aren’t in the book as we weren’t born then, but my mother and my grandmother are, and they are not history to me. Their whole lives were darkened by the terrible fate of their German relatives, and especially by their failure to save more of those who appealed for help. They did everything that was humanly possible, and they succeeded in some cases. (I am grateful for the life of my cousin and dear friend D, through her parents, although none of her grandparents could be saved.) The shadow passed to us, and to our children. It is impossible that my nineteen-year-old son can forget about the Holocaust, the slaughter of our family and the attempt to exterminate us all.
But we are Jews. Why should the rest of you bother to remember?
TillEulenspiegel
Master Poster
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- May 30, 2003
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But we are Jews. Why should the rest of you bother to remember?
Maybe because there were 6 Million others? Say Kaddish for them all. Like the Trade Towers and the Tsunami .we all morn and it souldn't be an exclusive focus.
Maybe because there were 6 Million others? Say Kaddish for them all. Like the Trade Towers and the Tsunami .we all morn and it souldn't be an exclusive focus.
LostAngeles
Penultimate Amazing
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Lucky said:
Because it was the rest of us who failed you. Also, it was ***ked.
LostAngeles
Penultimate Amazing
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TillEulenspiegel said:
I thought it was three million others. Nevermind. The numbers isn't really a matter to quibble over. The fact is, the Holocaust was ***ked, like I said above and too many people closed their eyes to it.
TillEulenspiegel
Master Poster
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Numbers ultimatly don't have any content but are an abstraction which I beliece ultimaltly diminish the reality of what transpired.
Hitler was an equal oppertunity murderer.
An Ex, not definitive but telling: http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/Newsletter.htm
Theres more then enough killing to go around.
Hitler was an equal oppertunity murderer.
An Ex, not definitive but telling: http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/Newsletter.htm
Theres more then enough killing to go around.
I want to point out that apart from the lives that were lost some countries -- like Greece-- lost in those camps part of their physiognomy.
The jewish communities in Greece date back to the Roman Era( in Greece we have Romaniotes Jews as well) but they flourished after the arrival of the Sefardic Jews from Spain. The Sefardic Jews changed the country radically. They brought knowledge, they brought skills and they brought a truly unique social experience since they were very well aware of the arabic culture and the tradition of the Catholic Church.
Communities that existed for centuries got lost in 4 to 6 months. Just like that and along with those people a significant part of Greek and European History and actual reality was lost for ever. Personally I cannot deal with that. I cannot accept that a lifestyle was lost just like that,in four months. I cannot accept that my grandmother's name survived from generation to generation for over than 400 years and yet it was lost in 4 months, I cannot accept that in a country that jewish people loved so much very few things exist to remind their presence; A lame monument in a corner of Salonika.
Greek school books don't mention anything about the jewish communities and when I have a new visitor to my house and he/she sees on the walls the framed jewish papers that were published in Salonika before the war and some, very few pictures I have what hurts me most is when he/she exclamates: " Did we have Jews in Salonika?"
Along with the people a whole european culture was burnt to ashes in those camps. Europe contributed in formation of the jewish culture but Europe destroyed it with a unique cruelty and this is what hurts most.
PS Nobody knows for sure what happened to Raul Wallenberg and this is the point of this petition. Praising his action and honouring the people who saved as many jews as they could and trying to figure out what happened to this man.
The jewish communities in Greece date back to the Roman Era( in Greece we have Romaniotes Jews as well) but they flourished after the arrival of the Sefardic Jews from Spain. The Sefardic Jews changed the country radically. They brought knowledge, they brought skills and they brought a truly unique social experience since they were very well aware of the arabic culture and the tradition of the Catholic Church.
Communities that existed for centuries got lost in 4 to 6 months. Just like that and along with those people a significant part of Greek and European History and actual reality was lost for ever. Personally I cannot deal with that. I cannot accept that a lifestyle was lost just like that,in four months. I cannot accept that my grandmother's name survived from generation to generation for over than 400 years and yet it was lost in 4 months, I cannot accept that in a country that jewish people loved so much very few things exist to remind their presence; A lame monument in a corner of Salonika.
Greek school books don't mention anything about the jewish communities and when I have a new visitor to my house and he/she sees on the walls the framed jewish papers that were published in Salonika before the war and some, very few pictures I have what hurts me most is when he/she exclamates: " Did we have Jews in Salonika?"
Along with the people a whole european culture was burnt to ashes in those camps. Europe contributed in formation of the jewish culture but Europe destroyed it with a unique cruelty and this is what hurts most.
PS Nobody knows for sure what happened to Raul Wallenberg and this is the point of this petition. Praising his action and honouring the people who saved as many jews as they could and trying to figure out what happened to this man.
billydkid
Illuminator
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- Aug 27, 2002
- Messages
- 4,917
Cleon said:
I don't think most people wonder why Jews make a big thing out of the Holocaust. I think most people recognize it as the monstrocity is was. I do think that it needs to be recognized as not exclusively a Jewish tragedy. While it happened mainly to Jews it didn't happen only to Jews. I also think that there have been a many instances of terrible genocides throughout history - maybe not of the magnitude of the Holocaust - but worth remembering also. Maybe no peoples have suffered to the extent of the Jews, but there are some not far behind. I think the mistake lies in thinking that the Jewish Holocaust is completely unique in history - which it may be in magnitude, but is not in character. I hope this does not offend you in any way. I do not mean it too. There has never been any shortage of examples of man's inhumanity to man. The Holocaust is a very extreme illustration of that inhumanity.
My greatgrandfather and his brothers got out of Russia/Poland (it depended on where the borders were on any given day.) to escape one of the Russian pogrom around 1910. It was not until high school that it occurred to me that I had lots of moderately close relatives that died in the camps.
BTW, my family history also says that we escaped the Inquisition and anti-semitism in England. I am a devout atheist with a Christian mother and have never been to a synagogue. But this family history has certainly changed my view point.
CBL
BTW, my family history also says that we escaped the Inquisition and anti-semitism in England. I am a devout atheist with a Christian mother and have never been to a synagogue. But this family history has certainly changed my view point.
CBL
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
ZeeGerman said:
I think that ordinary people everywhere are capable of such acts, and the massacres in Rwanda and Bosnia just appear to confirm it. Any group at any time is capable of doing this, given the circumstances to warp our thinking. I think this is the lesson we have not learned.
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
TillEulenspiegel said:
I think collective guilt is important, and a valid concept. In Australia, the last aboriginal massacre was in the 1940's. The population of pure aboriginals in Tasmania was subject to genocide, and none survive today, only those of mixed ancestry.
Already, the revisionist historians are out there saying none of this occurred, and they are lionised by the conservative parties, and our own Prime Minister. He is against any national apologies for what was done to them.
As an Australian, I do feel a collective guilt for what was done, and I think at least an apology is in order, and compensation, even though I was not personally involved in any of the history. However, if I lived at that time, I would have been, hopefully not directly, but indirectly at least.
Germany has, as I understand it, suffered a collective guilt, and so it should. This should not be seen, however, as something it must hide from in shame, but be part of the process of being humans who face up to their mistakes and learn from them, and that by sharing that guilt, such acts will not happen again.
Meadmaker
Unregistered
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I think a lot of people have their own "How the Holocaust hit home" story. Here's mine.
I married a Jewish woman. When she was seven months pregnant, her grandmother died. Her grandmother was a Polish immigrant, as a young girl, around 1920. In America, she met a man who was also a Polish immigrant, who came from a village near hers. When they decided to marry in 1937, they went back to Poland to get married. The family portrait taken at that time was one of the photos on display at the visitation.
I looked at that photo of a Jewish family, from Poland, in 1937. I didn't know much about them. However, because of where and when that photo was taken, it hit me that I knew two things about them. These people were my son's ancestors, and they were murdered.
I married a Jewish woman. When she was seven months pregnant, her grandmother died. Her grandmother was a Polish immigrant, as a young girl, around 1920. In America, she met a man who was also a Polish immigrant, who came from a village near hers. When they decided to marry in 1937, they went back to Poland to get married. The family portrait taken at that time was one of the photos on display at the visitation.
I looked at that photo of a Jewish family, from Poland, in 1937. I didn't know much about them. However, because of where and when that photo was taken, it hit me that I knew two things about them. These people were my son's ancestors, and they were murdered.
ZeeGerman
Graduate Poster
a_unique_person said:
I tend to agree - mostly that is. While I don't see collective guilt as an acceptable concept (you can only be guilty of something, you could have chosen not to do or let happen), concerning present day Germans, there is definitely a collective something.
I can feel it, many other Germans feel it, so it must be there.
The broadly accepted common stance about the nazi time in Germany can be summarized as:
1. Concerning the guilt for the German crimes between 39 and 45 the buck stops in Germany and nowhere else. Causality chains like "the Versaille treaty was unfair so it paved the way yadda yadda" is nothing but a diversion from the fact that Hitler got a solid amount of votes in the elections and that the Nazi ideas had wide support among the population.
2. Germany was not defeated in 1945 by the allies but liberated.
3. Germany as nation has the responsibility to preserve the memory of what happened for future generations.
Most of the members in this forum will have no problem to say
"I'm proud to be an American/Britain/Canadian/Dutch/Dane/..."
To me, hearing "I'm proud to be a German" has always sound awkward, and I have not used the phrase yet. I tried to get around the issue by convincing myself that patriotism is an outdated concept and that I'm somehow above it. Yet, something is missing. People identify themselves very strongly via properties of the collectives they belong to - it might not seem logical but it's very human and IMHO there is a thing like positive patriotism.
Through the last decades, the single most prominent collective property of Germany was of course the shameful stain of the third Reich, not really a suitable base for patriotism.
So, a positive form of german patriotism has yet to be defined which deals with ALL facets of our history, the bad and the good.
The first step was done in 1963 when JFK said his famous
It was said in the context of the cold war threatening to become quite hot, but it got him the hearts of the Germans because he gave them something to be proud of.
Zee
My grandparents were too young for WWII, but both my grandfather and dad were in wars and witnessed atrocities. When I think of the things my dad describes from Vietnam and what happened in WWII, I wonder what the difference is- the Holocaust seems more haunting, but is that only because of how it's been shown? Certainly, the sheer scale of death is overwhelming, but I can't help but feel it was the cold, calculating efficiency in the murders. My dad remembers coming upon a village in Vietnam where the body of one of the elders was still hanging in a tree. He had been disemboweled, then strangled to death with his own intestines. The cruelty necessary for such a killing is obvious, but is it different from what it took for human beings to perform experiments on others, or put them through an assembly line of death?
The school I attended for middle/high school has a German language elementary attached to it where the children of German NATO pilots send their children. The nearby military base houses the Euro-NATO Joint Jet Pilot Training program. Our classes always had several German students in them so they were generally asked when we reached WWII sections if they felt comfortable in the discussions. (Had there been any Jewish students at our Catholic school, they would have been asked as well.) The students never expressed feeling any sort of guilt for being German in relation to the Holocaust. One of my closest friends was German; she told me about her grandfather who had served in the military, but said he was fighting for Germany, not for the Nazis. So perhaps the younger generations don't feel guilt the same way. I think it's a good thing; it should be a human, not only German, responsibility to never forget.ZeeGerman said: