Attack of the Clones

[Z]

By Chinese mystic belief, a clone might well have a soul - granted, that might merely be the lower soul, the Po, and that the resulting clone might merely be an animal - or, worse, that the Po-inhabited body might draw a Hun-soul into it that did not belong there.

 

[Mephisto]

That's really interesting . . .

By Chinese mystic belief, a clone might well have a soul - granted, that might merely be the lower soul, the Po, and that the resulting clone might merely be an animal - or, worse, that the Po-inhabited body might draw a Hun-soul into it that did not belong there.

. . . and I'll have to confess very little knowledge of Chinese mystic belief. It sounds immediately captivating, and I really like to know more about the Po and Hun souls. Can you please point me to a knowledgable website? Thanks.

 

[Z]

You can try a variety of searches on Google: 'po hun soul', 'Chinese mythology soul', 'binary soul' turn up some interesting things. Unfortunately, this idea has been heavily usurped by New Agers, Pseudo-Medics, and Gamers, so many sites may deal with this concept from these aspects.

I originally heard of this concept from a gaming book, in fact: 'Mystic China' by Palladium Books. But I then read a long book about Chineses Mythology, one geared more toward the common, everyday beliefs of the people rather than the formal mythologies of temples and history, and it discussed the Hun/Po model in more detail.

In some concepts, the Po is permanently tied to the body, and descends into the Earth upon the body's death - this is the source of some Chinese myths about the undead, that the Po can reanimate the body. The Hun ascends into the spiritual realm and becomes either a Heavenly spirit, or it fails to do so and remains on Earth as a ghost. This is partly why the Chinese seek both physical and spiritual harmony, and why they respect the burial places of their dead so much: they think some connection between hun and po remains, and a disturbed body might invite the Hun to return to redress a grievance.

 

[Mephisto]

Thanks!

You can try a variety of searches on Google: 'po hun soul', 'Chinese mythology soul', 'binary soul' turn up some interesting things. Unfortunately, this idea has been heavily usurped by New Agers, Pseudo-Medics, and Gamers, so many sites may deal with this concept from these aspects.

I originally heard of this concept from a gaming book, in fact: 'Mystic China' by Palladium Books. But I then read a long book about Chineses Mythology, one geared more toward the common, everyday beliefs of the people rather than the formal mythologies of temples and history, and it discussed the Hun/Po model in more detail.

In some concepts, the Po is permanently tied to the body, and descends into the Earth upon the body's death - this is the source of some Chinese myths about the undead, that the Po can reanimate the body. The Hun ascends into the spiritual realm and becomes either a Heavenly spirit, or it fails to do so and remains on Earth as a ghost. This is partly why the Chinese seek both physical and spiritual harmony, and why they respect the burial places of their dead so much: they think some connection between hun and po remains, and a disturbed body might invite the Hun to return to redress a grievance.

Sounds really interesting and definitely worth a look. I'm an airbrush surrealist and I'm working on a series of darker images from different religions. I'm just about finished with some illustrations of a few favorite Cantos from Dante's Inferno and was looking for something Asian to do next.

Not at all on the topic, but the recent attention to Japanese horror films by people interested in the genre has caught my attention. I've been a Japanophile for quite a long time, and believe the Japanese have a really different angle on ghost stories. Now, I know why! Thanks again.

Mephisto

 

[Z]

The book I mentioned earlier, Mystic China, in spite of being 'merely a gaming book', does have some imaginative takes on the philosophy of Chinese immortality, use of Chi, and the rather humorous idea of a 'Reforming Demon'. Of course, it is all to be largely taken with a grain of salt, as it is obviously an American's adaptation of Chinese mythos; but it might just be inspiring for a painter at any rate. (For example, imagine the idea of some Chi master filling himself with huge quantities of Dark Chi in a desperate bid to stay immortal... Makes Emperor Palpatine look like Brad Pitt by comparison...)

Unfortunately, Palladium is one of those companies that hasn't opted to join the PDF revolution in gaming, so their books can be a little hard to come by. Good luck!

 

[Ipecac]

Okay, I understand what Kitty was saying. I agree. If such a thing as a soul exists, then fully developed, born, clones would certainly have a soul. And it would be different from the original.

However, a group of cells developed in a lab to produce stem cells does not have a soul. It is, after all, merely a group of cells. Sadly, the far right would grant these cells the benefit of having a soul and President Bush is implicitly saying that such groups of cells do have a soul worth protecting.

 

[Mephisto]

President Bush is implicitly saying that such groups of cells do have a soul worth protecting.

I also agreed with Kitty's angle on clone souls and also wonder WHO (unless you see the geneticist as God) would embue a stem cell clone with a soul.

As for what President Bush believes - take it with a gigantic grain of salt (at least the size of Lot's wife) as he also believed there was WMD.

 

[Kitty Chan]

Okay, I understand what Kitty was saying. I agree. If such a thing as a soul exists, then fully developed, born, clones would certainly have a soul. And it would be different from the original.

However, a group of cells developed in a lab to produce stem cells does not have a soul. It is, after all, merely a group of cells. Sadly, the far right would grant these cells the benefit of having a soul and President Bush is implicitly saying that such groups of cells do have a soul worth protecting.

gee thanks I finally make sense

This stem cell stuff I dont know too much, I know there is adult stem cells I hear are more stable than the others. Now, those I understand to be aborted babies and are not as stable.

Not having a clue what stable would entail other than what the word implies, stable for research. I imagine there is pro and con to both. Or the grisley thought that its about supply, which brings bad sci fi images to my mind, actually for either type.

Id have to say based on what Im thinking a group of stem cells has no soul.

However if those cells came from a aborted * then theres a fine kettle of fish. And the root of the conterversy. Then Id have to say yep there was a soul. NOT in the cells in the lab but their original source had a soul. Am I following this? is the group of stem cells from the aborted?

Then I wonder.... it was dead anyway so whats the difference between donating your eyes when you die and donating your stem cells.

But we cant murder a adult for their eyes. Im getting those bad sci fi images again.

If someone can toss some info on this, Id appreciate it. This is something I hear about, but since the news is endlessly on about it one tends to tune out.

 

[Yahweh]

Re: Re: Attack of the Clones

It seems to me that conservative America's main reason for being against cloning/stem cell research is so they remain consistent with their "life begins at conception" argument against abortion. If they allow "embryos" to be destroyed in stem cell research, they have to rationalize that with being against embryos being destroyed in abortion.

Most think abortion is murder, but I've never come across any who think a miscarriage is manslaughter. If they can rationalize that, they can rationalize cloning.