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Atheists and theists: Endless confrontations

Multivac said:
Of course it isn't. How can it be a self-evident truth if faith is required to believe it?
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Why should there be a conflict. You believe, without any mathematical proof, that one and only one straight line passes through a set of two points.

Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)
.
 
Lukraak_Sisser said:
As an atheist I have absolutely no need to have a conflict with religious people. Believe what you want.
But as others have stated, the conflict starts when someone else's religion starts dictating what I (or others not sharing it) can or cannot do.
I live in the Netherlands and even here a tiny extreme christian minority has used clever political maneuvering to keep shops closed on sunday, even though >80% of the population would like them to be able to be open on that day too.

And that's a political minority, I'd hate to live in a country where the religious bronze age mentality has actual political power and forbids unbelievers from making their own moral choices. Like when to wear a scarf or not, or the ability to have an abortion or not.
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In the USA where, quite a majority claim to be christian, there's no way in hell mandated sunday closures would be allowed in any but the smallest communities

The only real exceptions are when the "secular left" Temperance Movement aligns with the religious right to limit alcohol hours on sundays
 
Lukraak_Sisser said:
I live in the Netherlands and even here a tiny extreme christian minority has used clever political maneuvering to keep shops closed on sunday, even though >80% of the population would like them to be able to be open on that day too.
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They have been cleverly used. The reason behind shops closed on Sunday through half Europe is that the owners of little traditional shops can't either take a rest or keep the pace in their uneven competition with big commercial chains. The reason is economical, the same way that "Christian" foolin' around Sundays becoming "Atheist" party Saturdays and Sundays is for sociological reasons, not religious ones. The modern multicultural breed that some mass-murderers are worried about claims they have to pay respect for Muslim Fridays, Sabaths and Christian Sundays in order to praise gods in bars, restaurants, sport stadiums, swim-pools and botanical gardens. It will be surely a clever political manipulation from the popes of Mecca.
 
kowalskil said:
Why should there be a conflict. You believe, without any mathematical proof, that one and only one straight line passes through a set of two points.

Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)
.
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I don't need mathematical proof. Experimental proof is sufficient. I've seen many lines drawn in my day. I've even drawn some myself. I'd go so far as to call myself a line-drawing expert. I've never seen a set of points be connected by more than one straight line.

Maybe if I kept trying, I'd eventually discover that second line but as a practical matter I am unable to devote my entire life to experimentation so I declare the claim tenatively true. Should new evidence arise I'll gladly reconsider.

This same sort of thought applies to ESP, God, and homeopathy.
 
kowalskil said:
Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)
.
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Would I find there an article about self-aggrandizement and Appeal to Authority?

(BIG HINT: who you are and what you've done have little to do with your arguments, unless you're having an argument about something related to yourself. Every time you post this "I'm on Wikipedia, check me out!" you simply promote these fallacies. You don't support your arguments with it.)
 
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slingblade said:
Would I find there an article about self-aggrandizement and Appeal to Authority?

(BIG HINT: who you are and what you've done have little to do with your arguments, unless you're having an argument about something related to yourself. Every time you post this "I'm on Wikipedia, check me out!" you simply promote these fallacies. You don't support your arguments with it.)
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If Ludwick pays me I'll take a look.
 
Oh, I had a look. I didn't see what it had to do with anything. The constant harping on it is just irritating, and hasn't anything to do with most topics discussed.

Slingblade (see Wikipedia)
 
kowalskil said:
Why should there be a conflict. You believe, without any mathematical proof, that one and only one straight line passes through a set of two points.

Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)
.
Click to expand...

KingMerv00 said:
I don't need mathematical proof. Experimental proof is sufficient. I've seen many lines drawn in my day. I've even drawn some myself. I'd go so far as to call myself a line-drawing expert. I've never seen a set of points be connected by more than one straight line.

Maybe if I kept trying, I'd eventually discover that second line but as a practical matter I am unable to devote my entire life to experimentation so I declare the claim tenatively true. Should new evidence arise I'll gladly reconsider.

This same sort of thought applies to ESP, God, and homeopathy.
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Err... it is possible for an infinite number of distinct straight lines to pass through two distinct points.

Read up on non-Euclidean geometries.

In particular, if you consider a spherical geometry, a simple variety of an elliptical geometry, each straight line is a great circle of the sphere (the surface of the sphere is a plane, and all lines in that plane lie along the surface of the sphere). Consider the "north pole" and "south pole" of such a sphere (simply pick any pair of opposing points on the sphere). Every great circle (straight line) that passes through the north pole also passes through the south pole, so there are an infinite number of distinct straight lines that connect these two distinct points in a spherical geometry.

Lest you think that non-Euclidean geometries are too silly to contemplate, here are two quotes from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Euclidean_geometry:
The development of non-Euclidean geometries proved important to physics in the 20th century. Albert Einstein's general theory of relativity describes space as generally not flat (i.e., Euclidean), but as elliptically curved (i.e., non-Euclidean) near regions where energy is present. This kind of geometry, where the curvature changes from point to point, is called Riemannian geometry. It proves that it is possible, on a curved plane, for a triangle to have more than 180 degrees.

and

In Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos, the sunken city of R'lyeh is characterized by its non-Euclidean geometry. This is said to be a profoundly unsettling sight, often to the point of driving those who look upon it insane.
​
 
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Complexity said:
Err... it is possible for an infinite number of distinct straight lines to pass through two distinct points.

Read up on non-Euclidean geometries.
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1) I cannot answer because infinity is not a number.

2) Suppose you ask about five distinct straight lines. Again I have a conceptual problem with your question; the lines are not distinct.

3) But I like the mental gymnastic questions.

Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)
.
 
kowalskil said:
1) I cannot answer because infinity is not a number.
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As has been explained to you, yes it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfinite_number

kowalskil said:
2) Suppose you ask about five distinct straight lines. Again I have a conceptual problem with your question; the lines are not distinct.
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Well, you're wrong. Five distinct great circles of a sphere that each contain the same two points (e.g. "north pole" and "south pole") are five distinct lines in spherical geometry.

kowalskil said:
Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)
.
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Please stop referring to Wikipedia in hopes that someone will look you up on it.
 
Complexity said:
... Well, you're wrong. Five distinct great circles of a sphere that each contain the same two points (e.g. "north pole" and "south pole") are five distinct lines in spherical geometry.
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I was not talking about circles; I was talking about straight lines.
 
kowalskil said:
I was not talking about circles; I was talking about straight lines.
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Ah, but great circles are straight lines in a spherical geometry.

And before you say that we don't live in a spherical geometry, I'll point out that we don't live in a Euclidean geometry, either.

Please read up more before you post back saying the same wrong things again.

(having more fun that should be legal)
 
Limbo said:
All this God business didn't start with theologists who just decided to take the existence of God as a self-evident truth and go from there. That's a materialist myth. It started long ago with spontaneous mystical experiences of the sort that date back tens of thousands of years to primordial shamanism...and they are found in every mystical tradition including Christian mysticism. If one doesn't start there, they introduce compound error.

I see it time and time again. People misunderstanding where it all starts. If you don't start at the right place you end up at the wrong place and conflict continues.
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What percentage of Catholics do you think study the history of "spontaneous mystical experiences of the sort that date back tens of thousands of years to primordial shamanism" before they're taught to recite the Creeds? :rolleyes: What percentage of them ever actually have such a mystical experience?
 
pipelineaudio said:
In the USA where, quite a majority claim to be christian, there's no way in hell mandated sunday closures would be allowed in any but the smallest communities

The only real exceptions are when the "secular left" Temperance Movement aligns with the religious right to limit alcohol hours on sundays
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In OKlahoma, all liquor stores are closed on Sunday, and all beer sold outside of liquor stores is only 3% alcohol at most. Also, you cannot buy cold beer over 3%, you have to take it home and refrigerate it yourself.

Funny enough, the liquor stores are the ones lobbying for this every time it's been challenged, citing they would go out of business if grocery stores could sell wine and spirits.
 
Prometheus said:
What percentage of Catholics do you think study the history of "spontaneous mystical experiences of the sort that date back tens of thousands of years to primordial shamanism" before they're taught to recite the Creeds?
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I went to a Catholic school as a kid and I was taught the creed but was not taught about the history of mysticism. So I would guess the percentage is low.

The religious and non-religious alike have a lot to learn. I'm disappointed with both sides of the fence.

What percentage of them ever actually have such a mystical experience?
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It's probably a significant percentage.

[...]

In 1976 an extensive survey conducted by the administrators of the Gallup Poll indicated that 31 percent of Americans had experienced an "otherworldly" feeling of union with a divine being. The survey was based on in-home interviews with adults in more than 300 scientifically selected localities across the nation, and a further breakdown of the percentages revealed that 34 percent of the women polled and 27 percent of the men admitted that they had had a "religious experience."

To refute the often-heard suggestion that people with little formal education are more likely to undergo such experiences, the poll disclosed little difference in the educational level of the respondents: college background, 29 percent; high school, 31 percent; grade school, 30 percent. According to the pollsters, "Whether one regards these experiences as in the nature of self-delusion or wishful thinking, the important fact remains that, for the persons concerned, such experiences are very real and meaningful. Most important, perhaps, is the finding that these religious experiences are widespread and not limited to particular groups [or] one's circumstances in life…rich or poor, educated or uneducated, churched or unchurched."

[...]

http://www.unexplainedstuff.com/Religious-Phenomena/Visions.html

"Not recognizing that such experiences are possible or important can make us appear less wise even than our craziest religious opponents." -Sam Harris
 
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Limbo said:
"Whether one regards these experiences as in the nature of self-delusion or wishful thinking, the important fact remains that, for the persons concerned, such experiences are very real and meaningful."

[...]

"Not recognizing that such experiences are possible or important can make us appear less wise even than our craziest religious opponents." -Sam Harris
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People who have strong religious experiences think those experiences are important.

In other news, water is wet.

I mean, honestly, it's pretty obvious that religion is important to the kind of people who have mystical experiences, and that such experiences are possible. They've been reported as far back as recorded history, can be induced on command in a lab with drugs, and are obviously part of how our brain works.

I'm not sure how the above could be the least bit controversial, unless one takes it further and says that therefore those religious experiences are objective evidence of something other than the fact that people's brains can produce a particular sensation.
 
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