Atheists and the Big Bang

[KingMerv00]

Believe what you want to believe.

...and then go to hell because God hates for you to make honest mistakes about the nature of the universe.

 

[KingMerv00]

You almost got it right in the other thread, when you suggested the only choice we have is to believe in ourselves.

You don't seem to understand.

I'm sure I exist. I'm pretty sure you do too. I'm pretty sure God doesn't. I'm basically positive that gravity will continue to work normally for the next few seconds.


Since we are on the subject, how do you KNOW God exists. By a feeling?

Here are two possibilities:
1) God exists and you are right.

2) God doesn't exist and you are wrong.

Why is number 1 more probable than number 2? You lack physical, repeatable evidence so you depend on subjective emotions which I cannot share with you.

Why do you hold your emotions above mine?

 

[Iacchus]

You don't seem to understand.

I'm sure I exist. I'm pretty sure you do too. I'm pretty sure God doesn't. I'm basically positive that gravity will continue to work normally for the next few seconds.

Since we are on the subject, how do you KNOW God exists. By a feeling?

Yes, and it used to be self-evident that the earth was flat, so? And now, it's almost as plain as the nose on our face (self-evident) that it's round, correct?

 

[KingMerv00]

Yes, and it used to be self-evident that the earth was flat, so? And now, it's almost as plain as the nose on our face (self-evident) that it's round, correct?

Something that is self evident can be shown to be true without any outside evidence.

The idea that the earth is round is not self-evident, it never has been. It is a well substantiated and commonly held belief. I happen to find its probability to be very high.

 

[Pixel42]

There are three possibilities;
1. Closed Universe - the Big Crunch, the Universe contains enough mass to halt and reverse the expansion with the result that everything comes back to the point singularity from whence it came.
2. Open Universe - The Universe does not contain enough mass to stop the expansion and continues forever, resulting in the heat death of the Universe (the Universe slowly cools to a nice even temperature - serve with fries and a side salad ).
3. Flat Universe - The Universe has exactly the right amount of mass to halt the expansion at an infinite amount of time in the future. Also results in heat death and seems utterly nonsensical to me, but is the favoured scenario for almost all cosmologists (partly because it makes the maths a little easier ).

The recent discovery that the expansion of the universe is accelerating, not slowing as was expected, means that the universe is almost certainly open.

At some point the universe will have expanded to the point where it is essentially empty. The conditions will then be right for another quantum fluctuation, like the one we call the Big Bang - "nothing" will spontaneously decay into matter and vacuum energy, which together add up to nothing - and another universe will spring into existence.

So this scenario suggests we live in a single universe within a multiverse which consists of an infinite number of universes, each of which begins, inflates, expands and ends, but with no absolute beginning or ending.

 

[wollery]

Yes, and it used to be self-evident that the earth was flat, so? And now, it's almost as plain as the nose on our face (self-evident) that it's round, correct?

I'm sorry?

When exactly was it ever "self-evident" that the Earth was flat?

 

[Iacchus]

I'm sorry?

When exactly was it ever "self-evident" that the Earth was flat?

Would you suggest it's self-evident that the earth is round then? It's relatively simple to explain isn't it? I think to the extent that one becomes familiar with the evidence, then at that point it becomes self-evident.

 

[wollery]

Would you suggest it's self-evident that the earth is round then? It's relatively simple to explain isn't it? I think to the extent that one becomes familiar with the evidence, then at that point it becomes self-evident.

Well you're the one that said that it used to be self-evident that the Earth was flat. So I think it's up to you to explain what you meant by that statement.

 

[RussDill]

Would you suggest it's self-evident that the earth is round then? It's relatively simple to explain isn't it? I think to the extent that one becomes familiar with the evidence, then at that point it becomes self-evident.

His point is that it was always assumed that the earth was flat. The earth was then *proven* to be round.

You assume that a god exists...

 

[Iacchus]

Well you're the one that said that it used to be self-evident that the Earth was flat. So I think it's up to you to explain what you meant by that statement.

What else would you call it then if everybody understood that this was so? Now, it wasn't until somebody else assumed differently and proved it, that we've come to understand that the earth is round. So, is it now self-evident that the earth is round? Of course it is.

 

[Dr Adequate]

So, is it now self-evident that the earth is round? Of course it is.

No. It isn't. That's why we have to be told, as children. I would not, of course, presume to set limits on your all-encompasing genius, but I don't think I'd have figured it out for myself.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Believe what you want to believe.

When it comes to physics, I prefer to believe what physicists tell me. It reduces my chances of being completely wrong. You should try it.

 

[Michael Redman]

So, is it now self-evident that the earth is round? Of course it is.

Really? It doesn't look round to me.

 

[Iacchus]

No. It isn't. That's why we have to be told, as children. I would not, of course, presume to set limits on your all-encompasing genius, but I don't think I'd have figured it out for myself.

There comes a time however, when we understand, and at that point it becomes self-evident.

When it comes to physics, I prefer to believe what physicists tell me. It reduces my chances of being completely wrong. You should try it.

Wrong about what? God? If, in fact God does exist, don't you think that would have some bearing on the Big Bang? Of course that might mean we would have to rethink a few things now wouldn't we?

 

[wollery]

His point is that it was always assumed that the earth was flat. The earth was then *proven* to be round.

Yeah, but here's the thing, the Earth wasn't always assumed to be flat. The ancient Greeks not only knew that it was round, they actually knew how big it was, and how far it was to the Sun. (Okay, so their Solar distance measurement may have been off by a factor of a few, but that's still pretty good going.)

It's also a myth that mediaeval sailors thought that they would fall off the edge of the world if they sailed too far. It was the theologians who decreed that the Earth was flat, and it didn't do to contradict the charch in those days. On a clear day you can watch land appear to rise out of the sea as you approach it (or sink as you leave it). If the surface of the Earth were flat it would simply not do that, and the sailors knew this. They were afraid of getting lost, or eaten by seamonsters, or sunk in treacherous waters, and until the late middle ages very few ships ventured out of sight of land, unless they were certain of their course.

So guess what, the ignorance, and its enduring myth are due to the christian church. Who'd've thunk it.

You assume that a god exists...

 

[TragicMonkey]

"Self-evident" doesn't mean "obvious". It means that once presented with a fact, you don't require evidence to believe it. But that doesn't mean the fact's "obvious" truth was obvious before the fact was drawn to your attention.

The world being round, or flat, or doughnut-shaped is not self-evident, because you have to think of evidences and reasons for those positions. It invites explanation and examination.

The color red being different from the color green is self-evident (unless you're colorblind, or regular blind).

 

[Dr Adequate]

There comes a time however, when we understand, and at that point it becomes self-evident.
No. Something is "self-evident" if we don't need to be told. We needed to be told that the earth is spherical. In order that anyone should know this, some brainy person had to figure it out. It was not self-evident. It is self-evident that the world is flat and stationary. And also false.

Wrong about what?

Physics, obviously.

God? If, in fact God does exist, don't you think that would have some bearing on the Big Bang?

Yes... and on everything else. But why bother your mind about counterfactual hypotheticals?

 

[Iacchus]

No. Something is "self-evident" if we don't need to be told. We needed to be told that the earth is spherical. In order that anyone should know this, some brainy person had to figure it out. It was not self-evident. It is self-evident that the world is flat and stationary.

And yet once we understand something we don't need to be told. So why is it not self-evident in that sense? Oh, and why are some things self-evident to some folks and not self-evident to others? Why is it not self-evident for a newborn infant not to know who his mother and father is, and yet after a time it is?

And also false.

Well, perhaps what I'm referring to here is common sense then? The main thing is that the person has the capacity to acknowledge it for his or herself. In which case, yes, it still becomes evident to oneself. Which is a fact, whether it's commonly expressed this way or not. To me, something which is self-evident, is something you can immediately act upon, without any additional reasoning or input. Why? Because you know it for a fact.

Physics, obviously.

And yet I grant you, to each and every one who posts on these forums, that the world we live in is material.

Yes... and on everything else. But why bother your mind about counterfactual hypotheticals?

Why ask why? And what if it does bother me?

 

[Robin]

Wollery
It's also a myth that mediaeval sailors thought that they would fall off the edge of the world if they sailed too far. It was the theologians who decreed that the Earth was flat, and it didn't do to contradict the charch in those days

This is also a myth. The early Christian leaders were not necessarily well educated and some believed in a flat earth but the last hold outs for a flat earth in the Church were around 700-800 AD. Also the old testament sometimes presumes a flat earth.

But in medieval times the Church knew and taught that the earth was spherical. Some even taught that the earth moved.

The idea that the medieval church believed in a flat earth appears to have been invented in the 19th century by Washington Irving.

 

[KingMerv00]

The recent discovery that the expansion of the universe is accelerating, not slowing as was expected, means that the universe is almost certainly open.

At some point the universe will have expanded to the point where it is essentially empty. The conditions will then be right for another quantum fluctuation, like the one we call the Big Bang - "nothing" will spontaneously decay into matter and vacuum energy, which together add up to nothing - and another universe will spring into existence.

So this scenario suggests we live in a single universe within a multiverse which consists of an infinite number of universes, each of which begins, inflates, expands and ends, but with no absolute beginning or ending.

Does anyone have the slightest clue where the energy for acceleration is coming from?