Atheism Plus/Free Thought Blogs (FTB)

[squealpiggy]

That would be the colour blind racism I previously mentioned.

I have a five year old daughter and a two year old son, neither of whom give any sort of crap what someone's skin colour is. Are they being racist?

 

[Stout]

The question about this, as far as I'm concerned, is is that a social anxiety disorder as diagnosed by a medical professional, or as he himself has decided he has? And what treatment has he undergone for it?

I don't know, he's never diagnosis or treatment. There were a couple of tweets, one had him outside a store, too anxious to go in and cursing his SAD. and another had him unable to volunteer for a political party due to his condition.

Ellie made a post about SAD a couple of days ago.

And why should I, a person with social anxiety disorder, bend over backwards to accommodate a world without, instead of a little bit of vice versa?

Thread

It's a strange one. Just how does she expect the world to know she has SAD and accommodate her ? Are their t-shirts, lapel pins ? Does she want to be introduced as someone with SAD at parties ?

 

[H'ethetheth]

I have a five year old daughter and a two year old son, neither of whom give any sort of crap what someone's skin colour is. Are they being racist?

Are they white?

Then yes.

 

[Stout]

So I just need to point out that as someone who was diagnosed with Social Anxiety Disorder (SAD) a little over a decade ago. This isn't something you ever truly get cured of. You can learn to manage it and there are drugs that can help. And the nature of it can actually make it hard to seek treatment for it. I lived with it for over 30 years before doing so myself. Even something as anonymous as engaging in an online internet debate can induce feelings of anxiety. However I do not blame society for having it nor do I believe am owed any type of special consideration. And anyone who thinks someone shouldn't get treatment for it because it would damage their specialness is mistaken. (had to put that in since I am also the father of a child diagnosed with High Functioning Autism) My getting treatment enabled me to get a better job find and marry my beautiful wife and have our wonderful and beautiful son. Had I left myself untreated those things probably wouldn't have happened.

I remember seeing a TV ad, oh maybe a decade ago, that focused on a drug to tread SAD. I remember it as being a black and white ad, line drawings of people and wondering whether I had it to a certain degree as I have an irrational fear of public speaking.

In online discussions such as this one, I may make a post only to see it ignored and start wondering " was it something that I said " and get tempted to take it personally but all I have to do is look at all the other posts on that page that were similarly "ignored" to stop taking it personally.

I understand SAD ( not the seasonal one, but the social one ) and I may be looking at something like it in my 7 year old son. He's social around adults he knows well... and strangers however get him around adults he only knows in passing and he tends to be very, very shy.

 

[bedlin88]

I remember seeing a TV ad, oh maybe a decade ago, that focused on a drug to tread SAD. I remember it as being a black and white ad, line drawings of people and wondering whether I had it to a certain degree as I have an irrational fear of public speaking.

In online discussions such as this one, I may make a post only to see it ignored and start wondering " was it something that I said " and get tempted to take it personally but all I have to do is look at all the other posts on that page that were similarly "ignored" to stop taking it personally.

I understand SAD ( not the seasonal one, but the social one ) and I may be looking at something like it in my 7 year old son. He's social around adults he knows well... and strangers however get him around adults he only knows in passing and he tends to be very, very shy.

Knowing that you or others around you, have it is more then half the battle. Therapy for it generally, at least in my case, consisted of learning to identify the causes for the feeling and learning ways to critically break down those feelings to show there validity or lack there of. In the very extreme cases I believe the drugs are prescribed mainly to deal with the anxiety itself, the drugs don't/can't treat the underlining condition itself. Knowing about it early, as with your son, is a very good thing.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I don't know, he's never diagnosis or treatment.

Then that, for me, is a problem if she's claiming it to be true. If it's something which negatively affects her life (as it seems to be), then people should be encouraging her to get diagnosed and get treated. Anybody who is indulging her, rather than telling her that she needs to go and see a doctor does not have her best interests at heart.

And it's not like I don't know what I'm talking about. I had a friend who was completely crippled by SAD, to the point where she was committed. Now she says that being committed was the best thing that ever happened to her.

I, myself, get extremely nervous in social situations. I don't like answering or talking on the phone, I avoid social situations if possible, I get nervous if I have to go out to a client's home, sometimes I even get nervous before hitting "send" on a message board, despite the anonymity and the lack of social cues. But I have no trouble managing it. I get nervous before I go and see clients, but I go and see them anyway, because that's my job. And when I'm doing the sound at a festival you'd never know that I could find social situations intimidating, simply because I've got to get one band off and another band on and soundchecked in 15 minutes and there's no time for me to be anything other than professional.

Now, does that mean I actually have SAD? I couldn't really say as I'm not a mental health professional. But I do know that if it actively stopped me from doing things that I wanted to do, then I'd see about whether I could fix it. As it is I'm quite lucky, as I'm about as ungregarious as it's possible to get so don't want to be more social, and I'm able to get past it when I do need to, such as when I'm working.

And I also recognise that the world doesn't owe me a living, and that it's not everybody else's responsibility to look after me. I'm a grown man and my problems are mine alone. If I fall down, then nobody's going to pick me up except me. That's not something that requires whining about, it's just the truth of living alone in a cold, impersonal, Godless universe. And the truth is that I've got it better than the vast, vast majority of the people on the face of this planet. I mean, imagine living in an age and country where you've got the luxury to get anxious about social situations.

 

[Myriad]

No I'm not. I'm saying that it's possible for someone to perceive racism where none exists.

I think this is the crux of the discussion. What do you mean by racism not existing or not being real?

You've just represented a claim that racism might not exist in (meaning, clearly from the context, racism might not have been causal to) a specific event, as a claim that racism does not exist at all. Why did you feel it necessary or appropriate to do that?

Racism by your definition appears to be teetering toward unfalsifiability.

This is why I oppose such vaguely bounded and all-encompassing definitions. They're self-defeating. If all that is required for an instance of racism to occur is (1) someone of the "right" ethnicity feels put upon and emotionally assumes without evidence that racism is the cause, and (2) documentable racism exists somewhere in the world or in history to somehow justify that assumption, then sooner or later people will start asking why we should bother opposing racism at all. Why not direct that energy at a more tangible target, like sadness? After all, a neutral observer can at least tell, most of the time, when someone's feeling sad.

There's unambiguous racism around that's evident in people's words and actions. I oppose that, when and where I see evidence of it. But for all this elusive phantom racism, the kind that some insist has occurred when someone misunderstands the word "niggardly" or a driver cuts another driver off at night when neither can see the other's ethnicity, call the Ghostbusters instead of me. Wars against emotions don't seem to be very effective.

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[qwints]

... a person who is genuinely, utterly indifferent to a person's race is still somehow racist.

You're not doing that, are you?

Not as such, but I am saying that, at least in the US and probably elsewhere, no one is actually "genuinely, utterly indifferent to a person's race." Stout's link is a position I share. As to squealpiggy's question about children, it's not true that young children don't learn racial bias if it's not overt - SIGNATURES OF IMPLICIT INTERGROUP ATTITUDES.

Then you would say that the word "niggardly" is racist, despite it having no actual connection to any racial terms?

While it certainly can be used in a racist way or have a racist effect, the word itself isn't a racial slur.

And if she said the same thing to white delivery people...

Yes, uniform behavior can still have racist effects. As an example, consider someone who called everyone they know a racial slur. Race matters, and ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

 

[Ocelot]

I think this is the crux of the discussion. What do you mean by racism not existing or not being real?

I corrected one of my posts but not the other. So racism became "A racist incident"

"A racist incident is one of the things that can be experienced without being real"

The intention was to clarify that I'm not talking about a world in which racism doesn't exist. I'd hope that was already obvious.

I'd also have thought that for the word "racism" to be meaningful it can't apply equally to everything. So there are some things, ideas, people, occasions and incidents which are racist and some which aren't.

Do you agree so far?

 

[qwints]

Ocelot, I understand what you're saying so far. Sorry if I was unclear, my question is what you meant by "where none exists" in that particular event.

 

[Ocelot]

Good so you agree that there are some things, ideas, people, occasions and incidents which are racist and some which aren't.

I'm talking about those incidents which are not racist. And what I'm saying about them is that despite them not being racist incidents it is possible to mistakenly view some of them as being racist incidents.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

While it certainly can be used in a racist way or have a racist effect, the word itself isn't a racial slur.

Can you explain this to me please?

I don't get how a word that isn't even abusive can be used in a racist way, unless it's coupled with a racist statement.

If I say "don't be so niggardly" to a black person and they think it's a racist word, am I being (unwittingly) racist?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Yes, uniform behavior can still have racist effects. As an example, consider someone who called everyone they know a racial slur. Race matters, and ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

So what is you solution? How do you deal with delivery people using the wrong enterence? Clearly telling them all the same thing is wrong as you need to give some people special treatment and privileges.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

While it certainly can be used in a racist way or have a racist effect, the word itself isn't a racial slur.

Surely, if all it takes for an incident to be racist is for someone from the relevant ethnic minority to think that it's racist, then all it takes for a word to be a racial slur is for someone from the relevant ethnic minority to think that it's a racial slur?

Let's not forget that we're talking about someone encountering the word in a completely neutral situation and deciding that it's a slur against them.

Can you explain this to me please?

I don't get how a word that isn't even abusive can be used in a racist way, unless it's coupled with a racist statement.

I'd say that context and intent matters. It's certainly not hard to imagine a racist deliberately saying the word "niggardly" with the emphasis on the first two syllables within earshot of someone black, either to intimidate them or just for a cheap laugh.

However, that's nothing to do with the word itself. Let's say we have two people, Bianca and Maurice. Bianca is white, and Maurice is black. Bianca calls Maurice a "******". Now, if they've been friends for years and have been through tonnes together, then that could genuinely be a term of affection that they both perceive as such. On the other hand, Bianca could call Maurice "friend". And if she's got a large gang behind her and a swastika tattooed on her face, then that "friend" could be a terrible, intimidating insult.

When it comes to words, context may not be absolutely everything, but it's certainly the lion's share.

 

[qwints]

I don't get how a word that isn't even abusive can be used in a racist way, unless it's coupled with a racist statement.

It's possible to use a word in a way besides its original meaning. Imagine a couple white people repeatedly using niggardly to discuss a black person and routinely emphasizing the first two syllables.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

That isn't the situation we're discussing though. We're discussing if it's racist when used in a neutral context and (mis)interpreted to be racist, not someone attempting to crudely disguise their use of an actual racial slur.

 

[Amadanb]

If I say "don't be so niggardly" to a black person and they think it's a racist word, am I being (unwittingly) racist?

I'm sure you can imagine easily enough how "Don't be so niggardly," said to a black person just so, can be a deliberate attempt to bait them. I have seen this done. So sure, sitting by itself in the dictionary the word is not racist, and most uses of the word are not racist, but it's sure funny how every time discussions about racism and interpretations thereof come up, someone will haul that one out as some sort of challenge, like if you flinch upon hearing it then haw haw, you don't know your etymology. When seeing people flinch is the point.

 

[Stout]

Knowing that you or others around you, have it is more then half the battle. Therapy for it generally, at least in my case, consisted of learning to identify the causes for the feeling and learning ways to critically break down those feelings to show there validity or lack there of. In the very extreme cases I believe the drugs are prescribed mainly to deal with the anxiety itself, the drugs don't/can't treat the underlining condition itself. Knowing about it early, as with your son, is a very good thing.

That sounds like an excellent approach. I can't say that I have it and I'm hesitant to apply such a diagnosis to my son however in his case I do keep it in mind when he's saying things like 'I don't want to go to school" and approach it from a perspective that there may be some sort of interpersonal issues at play that he's not telling me or my wife about.

I can't see where it's preventing him from doing anything he wants to do ( which is not a lot, really, he's pretty focused on crappy online single player video games) and as long as he's not displaying the anti-social ADHD related behaviour he was 8 months ago, both my wife and I are happy with his leisure time choices.

I make my living as a street artist, and have done for the past 18 years and over time I've figured out how to tell who wants to hear more than my 10 second pitch, A pitch which is basically me being an egomaniac ("I made this, it's awesome, you should buy it") and those who just want to graze and will ask me questions if they want to. Sometimes I wonder if those grazers have issues such as SAD when it's obvious that there isn't a language barrier involved. I certainly don't want to get into any pressure sales techniques and have somebody buy something they'll regret later.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

I'm sure you can imagine easily enough how "Don't be so niggardly," said to a black person just so, can be a deliberate attempt to bait them.

Yes I can. How is that relevant to what I was asking?

I have seen this done.

I'm sure you have. I don't doubt it can, and does happen. That isn't what I'm asking.

So sure, sitting by itself in the dictionary the word is not racist, and most uses of the word are not racist,

Which is what I was asking about. It isn't a word that I would use, I think Miserly is far simpler and more widely understood. That I would not use it matters not one jot to the hypothetical however. If I use the word in a totally neutral way, no emphasis, no attempt to bait and a black person thinks I'm being racist, am I being racist?

but it's sure funny how every time discussions about racism and interpretations thereof come up, someone will haul that one out as some sort of challenge, like if you flinch upon hearing it then haw haw, you don't know your etymology. When seeing people flinch is the point.

Forgive if I'm wrong as nuance is difficult in a written medium, but are you underhandedly accusing me of something? It sure looks like you are what with the "gee whizz, every time this comes up people push the envelope" talk there. Do you think I'm a racist looking for a way to get around using the actual N word?


ETA: I'll make it perfectly clear. I am using this word precisely BECAUSE it is so close to a racial epithet to nail down exactly what qwints thinks the boundaries of what is and isn't racist are. It's a handy rhetorical tool in my quest to ask if this situation is "accidental racism" to him, and yourself because it CAN be used like that and because even when used blankly it can be seen as being racist.

 

[Stout]

Now, does that mean I actually have SAD? I couldn't really say as I'm not a mental health professional. But I do know that if it actively stopped me from doing things that I wanted to do, then I'd see about whether I could fix it. As it is I'm quite lucky, as I'm about as ungregarious as it's possible to get so don't want to be more social, and I'm able to get past it when I do need to, such as when I'm working.

Those sound like feelings that, as far I can tell, pretty much everybody has. At the end of my work day, which involves talking all day, the last thing I want to do is go out and be social or be among crowds. I think of my season of 12 hour days, 7 days a week as "going to jail" for three months and pretty much announce I'm going incommunicado until it's over.

Just for grins, I decided to see if I could overcome my irrational phobia about public speaking, public speaking as in addressing large groups so I became a paid amateur performer/dancer. It took me a few months of hard work and practice to get the techniques down as I can't dance to save my life and a little encouragement in "it doesn't matter how good you are at it, it just matters that you're doing it" vein, to boost my confidence.

I was by no means good when held up to professional standards but I became good enough to hear the words I wanted which were. you make it look easy.