Atheism Plus/Free Thought Blogs (FTB)

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Oh, yeah, there was that one post in...8617 posts...maybe it got discussed in 3 or 4 posts total. I think you're right.

Oh, and Amadanb, I did find A+ criticism of my parenting choices creepy, too, good point.

I am not going to go dig through the entire thread, but I've seen more than one post about ceepolk and Setar specifically, and people Googling them, turning up photographs, following them on Twitter, etc.

No, there was no actual doxing, but some people have basically been saying, "If I wanted to dox these people, it would be really easy..."

As for the A+ forum criticizing your parenting, I don't remember that thread, but if was Kassiane getting on your case, yes, I don't doubt it was probably creepy.

I think Amadanb covered most of my thoughts on this. What truly confounds me is that you seem so far beyond these two in considering the opinions of others yet continue to defend them.

Uh, I did agree that those two are toxic, but I did not agree with you that devoting a thread to pointing and laughing at them is doing a service for skepticism.

I will not defend their statements or their opinions, but I will defend their right to be wrong and crazy on a forum without people collecting their personal information out of, you know, idle curiosity.
 
...I did not agree with you that devoting a thread to pointing and laughing at them is doing a service for skepticism...

And participating on JREF is supposed to be doing a service for skepticism?

I did find JREF by my experience at the A+ forum, though, JREF seems to come up a lot in google searches especially if filtering by time (this thread in particular, of course)..say the last month, for instance.
 
Uh, I did agree that those two are toxic, but I did not agree with you that devoting a thread to pointing and laughing at them is doing a service for skepticism.

Nor did I say you did. I did imply it was a service to skepticism, in so much as a cautionary tale is, but didn't mean to include you-obviously-which is why I said imo. (In My Opinion) We differ on this issue.

I will not defend their statements or their opinions, but I will defend their right to be wrong and crazy on a forum without people collecting their personal information out of, you know, idle curiosity.

Did I say anything about that? Did anyone here say they should be silenced? That's their MO, not JREF's. But since you brought it up, I admit I was curious about who ceepolk was irl so I spent 10 minutes on Google to take a peek. It wasn't difficult, especially as her user name basically spells it out for you. I never posted it anywhere, or had any intention to do so. I see it more as trying to grasp where someone who's thinking you find p. outrageous is coming from than idle curiosity. We gain so many of our impressions of others from appearance, body language, tonality, and speaking patterns, all which are not available in text. I'll be able to explain it better after I've figured out who dan B is in beefspace. Care to give us a second letter, Danny? :D
 
I am not going to go dig through the entire thread, but I've seen more than one post about ceepolk and Setar specifically, and people Googling them, turning up photographs, following them on Twitter, etc.

[snip]

I will not defend their statements or their opinions, but I will defend their right to be wrong and crazy on a forum without people collecting their personal information out of, you know, idle curiosity.

Horror movies fascinate us. Horror stories like abductions, serial killers, mad bombers, etc. do also because of the same feature of human nature. We want to know about dangers so we can recognize, avoid, or escape them in the future.

The A+/FTB events are horror stories of good intentions gone bad. We are seeing an amazing example of what began as a noble social justice movement become hijacked by unhinged people with totalitarian mentalities they don't recognize in themselves. The pleasure we take in watching is the natural pleasure of learning. The ridicule protects us from unbearable awfulness, in this case of causes which many of us hold dear, atheism and equal rights, appropriated by small minded bullies of questionable emotional stability.
 
I get that some people here believe that the atheismplus forums are moderated in a way that those people believe contradicts its mission statement. I'm not particularly worried about this, and I'm perplexed by the people here who seem to think this perceived discrepancy is a particularly important thing.

I'd much rather discuss substantive issues than the mechanics of forum moderation, and the reason I've continued to post in this thread is I think we've had several substantive discussions that I enjoyed and helped clarify my thinking.
 
In response to people asking why anyone cares about A+, this is my personal response.

It's not just A+. It's A+, it's FTB, it's SRS on Reddit, it's Radfemhub, it's WreckTheJoint, it's the ugly phenomenon of socially progressive movements locking themselves into echo chambers where the most passionate and least rational dictate what can be said, and use that power to ratchet their captive network into dizzying heights of idiocy.

Now granted Radfemhub and some of the others I've listed do not fly the flag of critical thinking, so while I think their descent into lunacy is bad I don't think it's hypocritical. However by the same token the mere existence of A+ is bad for critical thinking and skepticism in a way that the mere existence of other leftist echo chambers is not bad for critical thinking and skepticism. (They are bad for progressivism, which is why I personally find them equally worrying, but that's my personal bag).

What we've got in A+ and the parallel networks is a hideous result of groupthink, banning and group selection. The sane people leave, and the dregs remaining create this culture where to be seen as a proper leftist you need to present yourself as a special snowflake filled with incoherent rage and emotional pain, constantly on the verge of a total nervous breakdown about how horrible the world is, and take the pain out on anyone who dares to make any moves to put the brakes on the descent into madness.

I suspect that the shift into electronic media and the availability of instant banning tools is the primary effector of this trend. If a skeptical or feminist group were meeting face to face it would be much more socially difficult for one or two special snowflakes to silence and summarily eject anyone who disagrees with them, so the memetic ecosystem would stay somewhat heterogenous. Dumb ideas would get challenged and modified and the group would stay relatively sane.

I think there probably is a parallel with how abusive religious cults work, in that all the effective ones deliberately separate their victims from their social support network, so that victims have no reality checks. The social media groups which ban dissent and encourage their followers to ban/ignore/unfriend/etc anyone who differs from them, as an act of piety to the cause, are doing something very similar in the on-line world.
 
That's from someone who supports the Tropes V Women videos and is generally a sympathiser with A+'s stated goals. As am I, generally speaking.

Here's what I find worrying about A+: Let's say you have four people: Terri; Sue; Bob and Jules.

All four are social progressives. They all agree with egalitarianism, whether it be feminism, race based etc etc. They all have pretty much the same social beliefs.

Terri, Sue and Jules are all left wing to some degree economically as well, whereas Bob is a fiscal conservative. He believes taxes should be lowered, tax breaks given to the wealthy CEOs and businessmen, and he believes in less stringent regulations on business. He supports a single payer or otherwise universal healthcare system, but he's also a supporter of free markets for things like transportation links and schooling.

Now, I don't agree with Bob, but I could stand side by side with him and say I could work with him to further progressive goals.

Could the people at A+?
 
lol, yeah that was me. It really wasn't at all intentional, and in fact I wasn't even familiar with the term infantilizing. Did Sun Countess ever mention it here at JREF? It happened at A+ before I was banned, and she didn't join those who accused me of calling her Sun Princess to infantilize her.

Thanks. My apologies to Sun Countess, then. Not that it was particularly insulting so much as I was just wrong.
 
Damn, Kevin, that's a heck of a post to follow.

I totally agree on the cult/religious aspect, in fact we can watch it happen with Ellie who it looks like has become estranged from her entire family ( who she lives with ) over social justice issue(s). We may remember Ellie accusing her mom of racism due to mom liking some content on Facebook that was critical of black youth and some of their fashion choices. Content that was created by a black man.

The fight went on all labour day weekend, and we were privy to alot of it but I dunno how many of us noticed the aftermath. Here, in Ellie's words.

Yes, Mother, the racism discussion we had on Facebook the other week is public. I see no reason why it should not be. If you are embarrassed by its taking place in full view of your friends, that's your fault for being a racist ****stain, not mine for calling you on your ****.

Also, how in **** is it that I am the only person in this house who is willing to say out loud that everybody, literally every****ingbody, is worthy of respect at all times, and how in **** is it that that makes me the enemy?

(Countdown to moving-out day: T minus two or three years...)

From their wishing complaining....thread.

Now as to looking up the individual players on A+, well, they put so much stock into lived experiences and do the bare minimum of citing so when we see something offered up as "truth" we do what all good skeptics and critical thinkers do, we go looking for proof.

As and example, the chemgeek was on about blogging while woman and said.

Once upon a time, I thought about starting my own science blog. Because I like science, and I like writing, and I thought mixing the two would be fun.

And then Elevatorgate happened.

And I'm not gonna open a blog on anything likely to generate internet hate at my by virtue of talking while a woman. Because, frankly, I got bullied all through school, and I'm not gonna do something that might expose me to that treatment again. My mental health could not stand that level of harassment. And so I'll keep quiet.

That is what silencing looks like. It doesn't look like, "Hey, Mr Dude Who Keeps Shouting Over Me, will you let me finish what I'm saying and actually consider my argument before you start yelling at me again?"

Thread

Did this happen? Is this sentiment based on experience ? Inquiring minds want to know. So a good skeptic may go looking for the answer to that question. Was/is there a blog and were the abusive comments posted in an attempt to silence a woman writing about science ? A blog was found, nothing about science, more day to day stuff but....no abusive comments.

Then another blog is born, a science blog and still no abusive comments however there is a very interesting post where she admits to being a first class alpha hotel while she was in school which, as we can all surmise, was most likely THE cause of all the bullying she is/was complaining about receiving.

Should I ignore that ? The fact that she's admitted to behavior that was pretty much guaranteed to alienate her amongst her peers ? Is she really a "victim" here or has this victim fetishization thing become a dominant character trait due to being a "leader" among a group of fellow victims of society ?

Post here

As I have to keep telling my 7 year old son....Not everything is all about you all the time.
 
Horror movies fascinate us. Horror stories like abductions, serial killers, mad bombers, etc. do also because of the same feature of human nature. We want to know about dangers so we can recognize, avoid, or escape them in the future.

The A+/FTB events are horror stories of good intentions gone bad. We are seeing an amazing example of what began as a noble social justice movement become hijacked by unhinged people with totalitarian mentalities they don't recognize in themselves. The pleasure we take in watching is the natural pleasure of learning. The ridicule protects us from unbearable awfulness, in this case of causes which many of us hold dear, atheism and equal rights, appropriated by small minded bullies of questionable emotional stability.

Spot on.
 
Quote:
Yes, Mother, the racism discussion we had on Facebook the other week is public. I see no reason why it should not be. If you are embarrassed by its taking place in full view of your friends, that's your fault for being a racist ****stain, not mine for calling you on your ****.

Also, how in **** is it that I am the only person in this house who is willing to say out loud that everybody, literally every****ingbody, is worthy of respect at all times, and how in **** is it that that makes me the enemy?

(Countdown to moving-out day: T minus two or three years...)

Bwahaha....

Knowing the cognitive dissonance in that group I'm sure no one sees the slight contradiction - okay, then,.. "blatant hypocrisy" - in the two bolded statements.
 
That's from someone who supports the Tropes V Women videos and is generally a sympathiser with A+'s stated goals. As am I, generally speaking.

Perhaps I didn't emphasise that enough.

In Australian political terms I'm far-left. In US political terms there isn't even a place on the map for me unless it's "lunatic fringe left". I'm in favour of affirmative action along racial and sexual lines, social security, expanded public health services, free mental health care, equal legal rights for all regardless of sexuality, you name it.

I'm also a committed atheist rationalist.

All of this is in my posting history - if I'm faking being a leftist rationalist, I've put one hell of a lot of effort over one hell of a long time into my fake persona.

In political terms I should be a natural ally of A+, right?

But in practice because I don't absolutely toe the A+ line, I'm seen as 100% committed to the enemy. I "lack any empathy whatsoever" as one poster put it. I'm just as much a bad guy as a Klansman or a wife-beater or Satan with a Hitler moustache.
 
Taking some points out of order,

Then they need to drop the pretence of being an association that cares about social justice.

Because if you are not actively opposing a thing in every place you speak you can't really be against a thing? That is pure nonsense.

Bolding mine. An explicit statement of intent. Not an error or oversight.

Fair enough, socks and spam accounts. Your statements were over-broad and seemed to reference a trend on all blocks, but socks and spam accounts were meant to be blocked.

But you opened with this rubbish,

And if the disagreement is on what is or is not racism, sexism, ageism, etc? Like, for example, whether disagreement over how rape victims should feel is "victim blaming" or not, the like of which had a non rape-victim moderator banning a rape-victim poster for disagreeing with him on that point?

....

Still beating that horse? Still, after the links to the open admission that it was a mistake. The massive red font huge text apology and retraction? Here on this thread no less. I am done with you. You have absolutely no credibility with me. That is beyond disingenuous.


I agree with you, but I confess that ceepolk and Setar are sterling examples of people that anyone critical of A+ can point to as "the ones who would line you up against a wall if given a chance." (And yes, I am dead serious.) ....

I consider both of them friends, and while I do not agree with either all the time, I respect both of them. Both of them have taught me things about myself, and the world, I would not have known without having met them. Both have lived through levels of persecution that I have not and so I refrain from passing judgment. Both have written thoughtful and thought provoking posts repeatedly. Both have also told those they perceived as threats off in no uncertain language. However it is only a skewed view of the latter that gets any representation off the board. Having known them about a year and talking with them on a wide variety of topics I dare say I know them better than the heckle squad here. Neither would be lining people up on a wall. Both would gladly enact a much more socialized form of government. But if I had to deal with a fraction of the excrement that gets sent their way I know I would be a damn sight more hostile.

As to the people being banned for just a disagreement, I continue to disagree strongly with that characterization. People have been banned for a lot of things, but they have fallen on some level of some axis of oppression in every case I have seen it happen.

Apos, can you please point to one instance, ever, where suppressing an idea got rid of it? It can be social, political, anything you like, you just have to show an idea that arose, was suppressed, and was ultimately quashed.

First show me any idea that was ever eliminated. Seriously, if an idea was gone none of us would be able to point to it, the idea would be gone.

My point was that blocking someone for making a claim is expression of disagreement. Expression of disagreement can change minds.

I think Amadanb covered most of my thoughts on this. What truly confounds me is that you seem so far beyond these two in considering the opinions of others yet continue to defend them. From my pov they are both myopic, intellectual bullies who deserve to be hoisted on their own petards.

I daresay I know them better than you do. Reading their comments with an open mind, as opposed to shutting down over the use of a word for intercourse, is worthwhile.

They unintentionally provide the jokes. We just point and laugh. It's either that or cry, and the former is far more satisfying. A+ has an average of under 5 registered users now most of the time. As far as I can see it's main function at this point is serving as a cautionary tale. :dunno:

Emphasis mine. Seriously, point and laugh. What does that image conjure for you? Hey look, that person is different, I could argue about the specifics, but instead I will demean them as a person, call them poster children for failure and what have you. Neither of them is posting to you, or here in your space. Neither is seeking your attention. Yet you (specific you and general you of too many people on this thread) seek them out to point and to laugh. It is disgusting. The basest form of human nature, shy of physical violence. Your continued engagement in it diminishes everyone involved. Especially on a board that has such specific rules (read claimed ideals) about personal attacks.

You aren't being skeptical, you are not engaging their ideas. You are just languishing in a continuous ad hominem fallacy.

Ophielia Benson took exception to being called "Ophie" now look, lots of people just have to do it. Lets mock 'Ophie'... oh boy someone I disagree with to make fun of, what a treat.

It is disgusting.
 
You aren't being skeptical, you are not engaging their ideas. You are just languishing in a continuous ad hominem fallacy.

...

It is disgusting.

This is ironic coming from someone employing the A+ "reasoning" strategy which consists of finding some excuse to decide that the other person is horrible, and then announcing that you will not respond to such a horrible person.

ETA:


Still beating that horse? Still, after the links to the open admission that it was a mistake. The massive red font huge text apology and retraction? Here on this thread no less. I am done with you. You have absolutely no credibility with me. That is beyond disingenuous.

Since you don't understand why some people still have a problem with this, allow me to explain. It happened in the first place. That's the problem.

Now in those particular cases the victims of A+ bullying were able to play the "I'm a rape victim!" card or the "I'm mentally ill!" card and get an apology and a public admission that a mistake had been made. However the problem is that A+ is pretending to be a rationalist site, and from the rationalist perspective it simply should not matter one tiny bit whether a given view is being put forward by a rape victim or a non-rape-victim. A view should stand on its own, supported by logical argument and/or empirical fact.

If someone had gone over there and said exactly the same things but not played the victim card to back it up, they'd have gotten the ban hammer.

Simply put, you can either be a critical thinking site, or a "safe space" for special snowflakes to say whatever they like regardless of whether it is true or makes sense. You have to pick one. You can't have both.
 
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Perhaps I didn't emphasise that enough.

In Australian political terms I'm far-left. In US political terms there isn't even a place on the map for me unless it's "lunatic fringe left". I'm in favour of affirmative action along racial and sexual lines, social security, expanded public health services, free mental health care, equal legal rights for all regardless of sexuality, you name it.

I'm also a committed atheist rationalist.

All of this is in my posting history - if I'm faking being a leftist rationalist, I've put one hell of a lot of effort over one hell of a long time into my fake persona.

In political terms I should be a natural ally of A+, right?

But in practice because I don't absolutely toe the A+ line, I'm seen as 100% committed to the enemy. I "lack any empathy whatsoever" as one poster put it. I'm just as much a bad guy as a Klansman or a wife-beater or Satan with a Hitler moustache.

This.

I'm very left wing politically. I support single payer healthcare, a kind of Medicare-for-all. I support taxing the rich to pay for social services such as public transportation and schools. I support gay people having each and every right that straight people have. I support abortion being available just like any other medical procedure, without any additional restrictions whatsoever. I support legalizing marijuana and ending the war on drugs. I support ending the death penalty.

But I also support some other things, and I think that's where I differ from the A+ group.

For starters, I support using a skeptical approach when it comes to fighting various injustices. If an activist wants to tackle a certain issue, for example, what are the causes and effects of that problem? Will a specific action help to fight this problem, and if so, how? Is that action the most effective use of time, money, and other resources? Are there any negative consequences of that action, and if so, is the tradeoff worth it? A skeptical perspective allows an activist to find the right answers to these questions, and thus to be more effective in their activism.

But A+ rejects all of this. A+ argues that if you disagree with someone, particularly a marginalized person, you're being offensive/silencing/erasing, and that this is more important than whether or not you're actually right. My concern with activism is getting the right answers so I can be effective at my goals. Their concern is getting the same answer they've already gotten so they can feel validated. And thus you end up with situations like Setar saying completely wrong things about that set of mental health policies in Vancouver, and the person objecting to him (and being completely correct in his criticisms) was shut down, because he was disagreeing with Setar and that's more important than actually determining what the best way to address mental health concerns in Vancouver is.

More insidiously, this approach also means they're more likely to do harm in their activism than a skeptic. Let's say another activist wants to work on the issue of GMO crops. A skeptic would consider the pros and cons of GMOs, for instance: how many people are fed with them? Are GMOs killing off non-GMO crops? Is there a serious threat of over-homoginizing our crops such that one bug kills all our plants and starves us? And so forth. A skeptic would get as precise a picture as possible of the current situation and how any given action (e.g., lobbying to ban GMO crops, or a certain crop, or subsidizing non-GMOs, etc.) would effect the world. A complete ban, for instance, might result in people starving because GMO crops can often produce more food than others. But on the A+ boards, no one cares. And so you have Ellie Murasaki criticizing anyone who disagrees with her about GMOs being evil as being oppressive or silencing or what have you instead of disagreeing with their facts or analysis. If she ever does anything with GMO activism, her approaches are likely to hurt, not help, the people she's ostensibly acting in favor of.

I also support honesty in activism. I want politicians and corporations to be honest with us, and I think our activists should be honest too. A+ rejects this. I'm not only talking about things like 'secret private board? What secret private board?', although those are important. But there's also things like whether or not the tone argument is valid. If a moderator there, or a sufficiently important member, fires invective at someone and they respond with a 'hey, please cut it out,' that's the tone argument and not allowed. But if that newbie fires invective at the longtime board members, that's disrespectful or harassing and that's also not allowed. So either they're lying when they say tone arguments are invalid, or they're lying when they say certain tones are disrespectful. And these are over message board comments. Is there any reason to think they'd be honest if they did something in meatspace, something that might influence the rest of us outside their board?

I support efficacy in activism, even if it requires compromise and pragmatism. David Silverman got in hot water recently for saying that atheists need to stand together to make change; this was interpreted as him saying that the good atheists have to stand by misogynistic slimeballs. But David Silverman, love him or hate him, is out there and pushing to change the culture to make things better for atheists, skeptics, humanists, and ultimately all those who support pluralism. It's easy to disdain compromise when the sum total of your activism is limited to writing on the Internet, since you don't need to go along with anyone else to write them. Going out into the world, pushing for causes, you might need to partner with people whom you don't agree with on everything. You might need to give up something to get something else. Now, the point at which you're giving up too much and compromising too many ideals can be different for everyone, and activists can disagree in good faith over where that point is. But the A+ people see any compromise or deviation from their pure ideals as tantamount to treason. And so they don't do anything, because there are not enough people who agree with them on everything to get anything done. They just heap abuse on those who do actually do things.

I support universal rights; for example, I think even those who have depraved and evil ideologies (e.g., Nazis) should be allowed to speak, assemble, and have the same constitutional protections and rights that other groups do. The A+ crew does not. PZ Myers recently posed about a quartet of Native American women who stole some Nazi's flag and burned it. Myers opposed the theft and burning but many commenters did not, and Caine even said that all Nazi flags should be burned, neo-Nazis suppressed, and that those who disagreed with him were actually supporting the Nazis. I was tempted to post, mention that I am ethnically Jewish, and then say that I completely disagreed with him, as do the ACLU and other civil liberties organizations, but I decided it wasn't worth the headache.

There's a lot more, but I think this covers the gist of it. I do support most of their ostensible causes; I want misogyny, racism, homophobia etc to be destroyed, and the sooner the better. I want a more equal society. But while the A+ crew claims to want that, they prioritize keeping the hugbox environment and saying whatever they need to say to keep their pretenses of superiority over actual change. If what they wanted was just their own clubhouse, then I wouldn't care overmuch.

But they claim to be activists, fighting oppression and fixing the world's problems.

And I expect better conduct from an activist group.
 
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Still beating that horse? Still, after the links to the open admission that it was a mistake. The massive red font huge text apology and retraction? Here on this thread no less. I am done with you. You have absolutely no credibility with me. That is beyond disingenuous.

Like Kevin says, the problem isn't that they got it wrong in these instances. The problem is that they think that someone's identity trumps what they say. The comments made by those posters were equally true before and after they revealed themselves as having the relevant oppressions in question. On the A+ forum, though, whether or not their statements are true is unimportant. All that matters is how they identify.

That isn't critical thinking or skepticism. And while that can pass on a message board where there aren't any further consequences, it causes problems if anyone tries to take it up to actual activism. Suppose for a moment that some posters were driven to oppose the Vancouver mental health improvements based on Setar's inaccurate reading of the article. Were they to be successful, they would actually be hurting the people in Vancouver who need those treatments. But that's less important, apparently, than making sure Setar and the other posters feel validated and supported.

And if the goal of the board is to be a clubhouse, fine. If the goal is to help with actual activism, fighting oppressions, or even skeptical thinking to understand the world, it isn't working. And it has the potential to be harmful.
 
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It is disgusting.


That drama llama thing must be catching. Is there an A+ newspeak definition for "disgusting"? Or are you just doing the A+ hyperbolic posturing thing? I find it hard to believe that you're actually getting sick to your stomach over people who have the temerity to call out clowns for being clownish. Would you like to take a stroll with me over to A+ to find the threads where the clown corps mocks people on other boards or in public blogs who they disagree with? It won't take long, believe me.

Mockery, sarcasm and ridicule are all as valid rhetorical tools as cursing and wishing real live persons would have a rabid gerbil shoved up their ass. Do you not find it so? Or are you so busy splitting hairs and looking for new angles from which to approach your apologia that you can't see that? We all use those same rhetorical tools in given circumstances. And by "we all", I obviously mean "well, a certain number of us, at any rate". Ridicule, as we've often said, is a perfectly appropriate reaction to the ridiculous.

But this is part of what Kevin pointed out. In A+ world you need to find something to get outraged about so you can curse and fling about insults or you're just not part of the in crowd. When a rational statement will do and would probably achieve more, the accepted medium is hyperbole and drama.


ETA: Is ass permitted by the auto-censor? I was expecting it to be asterisked out.
 
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Because if you are not actively opposing a thing in every place you speak you can't really be against a thing? That is pure nonsense.

If you claim to be a place which furthers social justice then you should further social justice, yes.

Fair enough, socks and spam accounts.

So you do think it's okay to try to auto-ban accounts, then? And, if you read the FAQ, you'll see that level 1 isn't just socks and spam accounts, it's also those who are deemed abusive.

Still beating that horse? Still, after the links to the open admission that it was a mistake. The massive red font huge text apology and retraction? Here on this thread no less.

Yes, indeed, as that's part of the illustration of my point. Because the apology and the retraction doesn't actually change what happened.

Let me reiterate in order to make it clear. There are two points here. The first has been covered by a couple of other posters - namely that whether what someone says is okay or not isn't determined by what they're actually saying, but is determined by who they are. That their opinion magically changes from ban-worthy to worthy of respect and consideration based on nothing but who they are. That's as far from critical thinking as it's possible to get.

The second point, which hasn't been touched on, is the trend I mentioned above - that there's a culture at A+ to assume that anybody who disagrees with you on a particular topic must be "privileged" with regard to that topic, because if they weren't, then they couldn't possibly disagree with you, right? Had the poster's statements been approached in a fair or reasonable manner, then the ban would never have happened, regardless of what his status was. Had it not been assumed, out of hand, that he couldn't possibly be a rape victim because he thought that not all rape victims would necessarily prefer to be dead than alive, then the ban would never have happened. But, no, someone who hadn't been raped had come to the decision that all rape victims must be in a headspace where they'd rather be dead than alive and that therefore anybody who disagrees with that was automatically not a rape victim and therefore "victim-blaming".

That's what the problem stemmed from - the belief on behalf of the mod that, simply because he was a SJW, that he was right and therefore that anything that anybody said which contradicted him was necessarily wrong - both factually wrong, and morally wrong - and therefore had to be clamped down on, hard. And, who'd have thought it? Turns out that that approach is closed-minded and can be harmful.

As far as the apology goes, saying "I'm sorry" is easy. Learning from your mistakes is what makes an apology have value. If you apologise for something and then carry on doing exactly the same thing over and over again, then that apology is worth nothing. And, it's obvious from the continued style of posting of the elite over there, that nobody learnt anything from that episode. It's still the case that if someone disagrees with you on something like that that they're automatically in the wrong and deserve banning, and that they couldn't possibly be a member of the group that you think you're protecting. And, as that's still demonstrably the status-quo over there (as most recently shown in the mental health thread over there where the poster with mental health issues who was referring to the facts of the case in order to correct the misinformation Setar and the mods were putting forth was told off for not taking the position of those with mental health issues into account), then the apology means exactly nothing.

That's my opinion, anyway. Seems that you won't read it, though, as I take you being "done with
" to mean that I'm on ignore.
 
This is ironic coming from someone employing the A+ "reasoning" strategy which consists of finding some excuse to decide that the other person is horrible, and then announcing that you will not respond to such a horrible person.

Missed my reference to previous conversation eh? Go ahead and check back, I'm not going to dig it up. They do not argue in good faith. So I'm done with them.


ETA:

Since you don't understand why some people still have a problem with this, allow me to explain. It happened in the first place. That's the problem.

Now in those particular cases the victims of A+ bullying were able to play the "I'm a rape victim!" card or the "I'm mentally ill!" card and get an apology and a public admission that a mistake had been made. However the problem is that A+ is pretending to be a rationalist site, and from the rationalist perspective it simply should not matter one tiny bit whether a given view is being put forward by a rape victim or a non-rape-victim. A view should stand on its own, supported by logical argument and/or empirical fact.

If someone had gone over there and said exactly the same things but not played the victim card to back it up, they'd have gotten the ban hammer.

Simply put, you can either be a critical thinking site, or a "safe space" for special snowflakes to say whatever they like regardless of whether it is true or makes sense. You have to pick one. You can't have both.

Bull stuff. You are advocating some kind of super vulcan nonsense. Emotion and lived experience matter, rather a lot. To pretend that only hard logic and empirical facts can be valid when discussing sociology is beyond silly. It does a tremendous disservice to the emotional beings we are and the subjective reality we must deal with. You are also making predictions with little or no data and passing off your feelings as though they are empirical fact.

I get it, you don't like the board, and apparently had a bad experience there. Now look at how that negative emotion colors every single post you make about it. (I don't recognize your name but if you want to talk about whatever got you upset I'd be happy to.)

@Foolmewunz, there are threads on A+ which discuss people and what they have done or said, often negativly. However the hate you perpetuate here is a thing all together apart. You might notice that I called out the lack of criticism with what Settar said, in the sense of an argument against it. There is a lot of quote mining and guffawing. Then again, you are one of the biggest cheerleaders for it so hey, whatever helps you sleep at night I suppose.
 
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Missed my reference to previous conversation eh? Go ahead and check back, I'm not going to dig it up. They do not argue in good faith. So I'm done with them.




Bull stuff. You are advocating some kind of super vulcan nonsense. Emotion and lived experience matter, rather a lot. To pretend that only hard logic and empirical facts can be valid when discussing sociology is beyond silly. It does a tremendous disservice to the emotional beings we are and the subjective reality we must deal with. You are also making predictions with little or no data and passing off your feelings as though they are empirical fact.

I get it, you don't like the board, and apparently had a bad experience there. Now look at how that negative emotion colors every single post you make about it. (I don't recognize your name but if you want to talk about whatever got you upset I'd be happy to.)

@Foolmewunz, there are threads on A+ which discuss people and what they have done or said, often negativly. However the hate you perpetuate here is a thing all together apart. You might notice that I called out the lack of criticism with what Settar said, in the sense of an argument against it. There is a lot of quote mining and guffawing. Then again, you are one of the biggest cheerleaders for it so hey, whatever helps you sleep at night I suppose.

There's some quote mining. There's a whole lot of link-to-thread, though. A lot more, actually. Care to revisit that statement?

I'm not a cheerleader. I'm a participant. You do recognize the difference between the two, don't you? I'm out there in the forefront posting links and asking questions and pointing out their ignorance and hypocrisy. My explication of why is not "cheerleading" in the least, as it's kind of hard to cheer for yourself, isn't it?

And I'll repeat... if they want to behave like maroons and don't want to be called on it, then they need to not do so in public. As long as they wave that little banner of theirs claiming to be for Social Justice while being both anti-social and unjust, I'm going to continue going at 'em. They can get rid of me, and probably a bunch of us with one simple move. Take any reference to their fight for social justice out of their FAQs and Mission Statements. It's a tad off-putting - how's that for understatement? - to those of us who've actually earned our stripes in this battle the hard way. Shouting "**** Privilege" from the safety of your room into an echo chamber does not equal "fighting for social justice".
 
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