Atheism Plus/Free Thought Blogs (FTB)

[RandFan]

I'd recommend the following blog post on the comparison: Shuffling feet: a black man’s view on Schroedinger’s Rapist

The art of special pleading. And I should say quite disgusting. It's sad people can't just be honest and accept that most men don't rape. It promotes irrational fear. Much like stranger danger it goes a long way in harming society and promoting victimhood.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

PZ: I officially divorce myself from the skeptic movement 5/5/13

I think he is upset over this 2012 TAM speech from Jamy Ian Swiss (good job keeping with current events PZ)

JIS repeated it at NECSS V last month. Maybe that's the version PZ saw.

 

[RandFan]

Really? It is simply an odds-game for what constitutes sexism and racism?

Few things are abused more than the concept of "privilege". To many it's a magical word that allows for special pleading and justifies discrimination. I think I already said this but think of it like ordering a diet coke with a big mac, large fry and an apple turnover. It turns fallacy into valid logic. Which is why those who misuse "privilege" are NOT skeptics.

And FTR, privilage is a valid concept and very important to social science. I wish the idiots pseudo-intellectuals would stop abusing it.

"Well don't do it, cause it hurts my ears when you do it" --Vinnie; My blue heaven.

 

[rustypouch]

Really? It is simply an odds-game for what constitutes sexism and racism?

Well, we all know that's white men just aren't victims, nor is it possible to oppress them. No matter the situation, blame whitey. Although I don't know what would be the feelings about one group of white people oppressing another. I think it either wouldn't matter, or be explained away by patriarchy.

But if such a thing were brought up at A+, and I don't know if it has, and am not willing to look, I'd bet strongly that it would involve some combination of verbal abuse, 'check your privilege,' bannination, and thread closure.

 

[Jono]

I'd agree that the moderation at atheismplus makes clear that we're much more interested in a safe space for mutual support rather than reaching out. That obviously doesn't preclude people who post there from reaching out in other places.

I noticed that and I think it is all well and good. In fact, I think it is super. But perhaps it has become not as much (anymore?) a safe space for people of said and given persuations as much as it has become a more solidified cluster of X-number of people warding against most (wether likeminded or not).

I, personally think it has become the latter. It is moreso a place for those specific seniors (and those newbies who accept to walk on eggshells around the others) than a by default respectful place for variance within a safe-space. The latter would've been good if A+ wanted to cultivate more members. And... even if they did not want that, it would be necessary for it to maintain its contemporary populus. Since I suspect this isn't the case, I predict that several current members will eventually rub on each other wrong way, and as that is not 'okay' they will have to leave.

All in all, it is not a difficult problem to fix. There just has to be the recognition that such a problem does exist. As it is, no such recognition is admitted (to my knowledge).

 

[Jono]

Is anyone mirroring this? I won't give him the benefit of my click traffic

Oh you.

I like alot of PZ Myers chronicles. I think he hits the nail on the head (on matters pertaining to biology et al) more often than not. Lately though, yes, I've gotten the experience that his focus has shifted from that very pressing realm to another realm which is gender-feminism (which is a variant of feminism that is not as pressing nor productive).

Now, more power to him for venturing ahead with a storm of his choice against unfair applications of fairness and tact but... again lately it seems as if he went there and then slightly beyond that point of constructive critical thinking. And, well, I lament that.

 

[Diogenes]

Few things are abused more than the concept of "privilege". To many it's a magical word that allows for special pleading and justifies discrimination...

I'm glad you wrote about special pleading that explains well what I was looking for in an explanation.

Privilege does look like a very useful sociological tool. I don't think the SJWs will ever see their own folly in misapplication. I'm pretty sure it would remain a "special case" if compared to the absurdity of any other population-level tool being applied to the individual.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I'd recommend the following blog post on the comparison: Shuffling feet: a black man’s view on Schroedinger’s Rapist

They (we) can rail against the hypocrisy of claiming to be anti-sexist whilst engaging in sex-based prejudicial behaviour, or we can recognize that if we want to be accommodating to women we have to make some adjustments to how we behave.

Or we can do both. Understanding how the world often is doesn't preclude one from speaking about how it ought to be.

 

[RandFan]

Oh you.

I like alot of PZ Myers chronicles. I think he hits the nail on the head (on matters pertaining to biology et al) more often than not. Lately though, yes, I've gotten the experience that his focus has shifted from that very pressing realm to another realm which is gender-feminism (which is a variant of feminism that is not as pressing nor productive).

Now, more power to him for venturing ahead with a storm of his choice against unfair applications of fairness and tact but... again lately it seems as if he went there and then slightly beyond that point of constructive critical thinking. And, well, I lament that.

This ^^^

I don't hate PZ and I'm grateful to his contributions in science but his behavior has left me less than thrilled when it comes to blindly defending the nonsense emanating from A+ and FTB.

 

[RandFan]

I'm glad you wrote about special pleading that explains well what I was looking for in an explanation.

Privilege does look like a very useful sociological tool. I don't think the SJWs will ever see their own folly in misapplication. I'm pretty sure it would remain a "special case" if compared to the absurdity of any other population-level tool being applied to the individual.

I think most of us have been in debates where we wish we could have some killer end game (see my sig file). But that's not real life. We have to come to terms with the fact that we will not convert many if any, the CT folks, the psychic and religious apologists, etc. More importantly, we might not ourselves find the truth. Our best bet is to be skeptical and use critical thinking skills. Rhetorical advantage might be useful for our egos but sophistry is not a logically valid reason for anyone to base an opinion on.

I'll say right now up front, perhaps A+ is more right than I am when it comes to social justice. In all honesty, they might, I'm comfortable in my uncertainty. I like doubt. I can live with doubt (nod to Feynman).

One thing I am certain of, the use of "privilege" at A+ is often just a rhetorical device to gain advantage in a discussion. It's cheap but more importantly it's fallacious.

 

[Kochanski]

This ^^^

I don't hate PZ and I'm grateful to his contributions in science but his behavior has left me less than thrilled when it comes to blindly defending the nonsense emanating from A+ and FTB.

I don't hate him either, there are very few people (I can think of only one actually, nothing to do with skepticism either) that I would say I hate. However, I have no desire to give him attention for his bad behavior So, no clicks for you PZ, I will ignore him as I would a misbehaving 5 year old. Not encouraging bad behavior.

I am quite happy if he actually means to get out of skepticism. I just hope that this does not start a new brouhaha with PZ or his supporters claiming victimhood for him.

 

[RandFan]

I don't hate him either, there are very few people (I can think of only one actually, nothing to do with skepticism either) that I would say I hate. However, I have no desire to give him attention for his bad behavior So, no clicks for you PZ, I will ignore him as I would a misbehaving 5 year old. Not encouraging bad behavior.

I am quite happy if he actually means to get out of skepticism.

I've no problems with that. Though I should note that my use of the word "hate" was probably not the right word. I value PZ even though I'm not particularly happy with his contributions to this mess. One last thing, in the interest of full disclosure I stopped reading Phyrangula not long after EG.. So I get where you are coming from.

I just hope that this does not start a new brouhaha with PZ or his supporters claiming victimhood for him.

Agreed.

 

[WillyWonka]

This ^^^

I don't hate PZ and I'm grateful to his contributions in science but his behavior has left me less than thrilled when it comes to blindly defending the nonsense emanating from A+ and FTB.

Gelatogate was enough for me to characterize him as a clown, a side show. Good riddance

 

[Jono]

I'll say right now up front, perhaps A+ is more right than I am when it comes to social justice. In all honesty, they might, I'm comfortable in my uncertainty. I like doubt. I can live with doubt (nod to Feynman).

One thing I am certain of, the use of "privilege" at A+ is often just a rhetorical device to gain advantage in a discussion. It's cheap but more importantly it's fallacious.

Yeah, I agree.

 

[Kochanski]

I do find it very interesting that PZ's comments come just a little over a week before the Women In Secularism 2 conference that I know he is attending. Call me cynical but the timing seems rather convenient

 

[Mr. Scott]

this thread strikes me as overwhelmingly white and male. There may be some participants who are not, but the feeling of this culture is white, male and intellectual. Consequently it takes me a lot more effort to participate here than in forums where I perceive greater diversity.

Greater diversity in color or gender reduces your participation effort? You are likely to gain a few IQ points participating on the Randi forum. This is an intellectual place. The effort is worth it.

The thing about "intellectual" is that it leans toward gender and race blindness. In other words, if you are educated, you write like an educated person, and your race or gender would not be evident in your writing unless your writing is specifically about your race or gender. I suspect the process going on in your brain, Apos, is that, since most jrefers write intelligently, we are most likely white males. You might want to check your racist and sexist intuitions. Additionally, you are likely assuming that one's not joining the A+ social justice fringe must mean one's a white male afraid of losing his privilege.

I'm going to assume you are unaware of my own personal categories of underprivilege, since I don't wear them on my sleeve, but I got some you ain't got

 

[Quinn]

The art of special pleading. And I should say quite disgusting. It's sad people can't just be honest and accept that most men don't rape. It promotes irrational fear.

That is my problem with it as well. The crux of the article seems to boil down to, "Black people adjust their behavior all the time to make white people more comfortable, so men, stop complaining about having to adjust your behavior to make women more comfortable." I have no disagreement with that per se. It's just that my solution is to take the idea even further and make it even simpler: no matter who you are, pay attention to how your presence affects the comfort of everyone around you, and be prepared to adjust your behavior accordingly if needed.

But of course then instead of Schrodinger's Rapist, the concept simply becomes Schroinger's Human, which isn't nearly as effective for scoring rhetorical points against oppressors.

 

[qwints]

if you are educated, you write like an educated person,

I just want to take this opportunity to say that prescriptivism sucks. And that writing in the way certain curriculums teach is not a mark of or even a good proxy for intelligence.

 

[Kochanski]

I just want to take this opportunity to say that prescriptivism sucks. And that writing in the way certain curriculums teach is not a mark of or even a good proxy for intelligence.

It may not be the mark of intelligence but it makes your writing more intelligible, unlike some places. Some of us prefer not to live through the looking glass.

 

[Stout]

It's all about ceepolk.

White people discussing Islam ? Oh no you don't

I'll quote the post just in case she realizes how racist she's being and does some editing, or makes the whole thread disappear.

And I'm going to tell you flat out that I do not care for criticisms of Islam that erase the fact that you can point to similar criticisims of Judaism and Christianity, and as such, aren't really a fit here.

Most people who frequent the forum are generally uninterested in talking about religion and how silly it is, just generally. But the particular fixation on talking about Islam is more about talking down brown people.

ETA Thread

Moderator notice

I'm going to ask you to stop talking about Islam in a vaccuum, because racism is not a thing we encourage. if you want to criticize one abrahamic religion, you better criticize them all.

If you can't do that, then I suggest that you not bother in the first place, because white christian folk criticizing brown people is going to punch down no matter how hard you try not to, and I will come down on you for it, as I have come down on every other white person who has done this on this forum since not long after it started.

So if you want to have this conversation, have it somewhere else, please.

If you're sincerely interested in social justice for Muslim people, I want the sources you talk about to be from Muslims. Not white people who have not and have never been Muslims. And if you don't happen to know of any, I suggest you start hunting them out.
Last edited by ceepolk on Mon May 06, 2013 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: not having this conversation here, as this is a no-racism zone

Isn't that cute, she calls everybody a Christian, on a forum supposedly dedicated to atheism.

All hail the ceepolk.

ETA Thread