Atheism Plus/Free Thought Blogs (FTB)

[kellyb]

It's an optional feature with phpBB to allow admins to read other peoples' private messages. Alternatively they could just go into the database manually and take a look. I would expect that they will do it, they've already demonstrated that they consider themselves somehow above having to behave ethically because "the ends justify the means". Also, even if they did it, they would never have to admit to doing it.

Do you have to download the feature? I used to be an admin on a phpbb board, and it was like this:
https://www.phpbb.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=582659
So, no, I couldn't just go in and read people's PMs, although there are ways around it for the super-dedicated snoop admins. But it's not part of the basic set-up (or wasn't back then.)

 

[RandFan]

A few points if I may.

This is not a JREF v A+ thread. This is a skeptic thread where the illogical bits of A+ (and yes, they are many and varied - that's why the thread is so long!), are brought to light and discussed.

It can't be done over there.

 

[WillyWonka]

Atheism Plus

Your it was a good idea, idea, was probably based on the assumption that it would be filled with everyday progressive folks, kind of like this place and not with the power hungry professional victims that currently pull the strings.

I think that Jen probably thought this would become a civilized place, but, as you said, it became dysfunctional. Let not forget at the Geneses was FtB, which is known to be filled with tolerance and understanding.

 

[Rrose Selavy]

A few points if I may.

This is not a JREF v A+ thread. This is a skeptic thread where the illogical bits of A+ (and yes, they are many and varied - that's why the thread is so long!), are brought to light and discussed.

JREF isn't a movement.

Another point is that the JREF forum where we are now is not the same as the JREF. We've been through this before but most JREF officlal or staff (apart from appointed forum admins) either spend virtually no time here or keep their distance. Randi even referred to forum "barking dogs" as a result of one criticism.
We are more or less tolerated here by the JREF. That could change and easily alienate many, as the upheavals at the old Dawkins forums showed, though I was never a member there.
While this forum is not the JREF, at the moment as far as I can see, in any official sense, Atheism Plus IS the forum and unless there is some great real life activism taking place elsewhere so far IS ONLY the forum.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Atheism Plus

Atheism Plus is quite useful for those of us who need quotes to bolster our points against atheists. They provide plenty.

 

[RandFan]

Atheism Plus is quite useful for those of us who need quotes to bolster our points against atheists. They provide plenty.

So, you engage in hasty generalizations?

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Atheism Plus is quite useful for those of us who need quotes to bolster our points against atheists. They provide plenty.

You can also visit Stormfront if you need quotes to bolster your points against Whitey.

 

[Hokulele]

You can also visit Stormfront if you need quotes to bolster your points against Whitey.

I think that was kind of his point, and it was directed towards people who use extreme actions/individuals/websites (*cough* Rapture Ready *cough*) to bolster points aganist Christians/Christianity.

Not that that ever happens here...


Although, to turn this back on AvalonXQ, it is easy enough to use actual points from Christianity to explain why many people here are not interested in becoming Christian, we shouldn't need to use the extreme ones.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I think that was kind of his point, and it was directed towards people who use extreme actions/individuals/websites (*cough* Rapture Ready *cough*) to bolster points aganist Christians/Christianity.

If that's the case, then I owe AvalonXQ an apology.

 

[RandFan]

So, you engage in hasty generalizations?

I think that was kind of his point, and it was directed towards people who use extreme actions/individuals/websites (*cough* Rapture Ready *cough*) to bolster points aganist Christians/Christianity.

I should have picked up on that.

Although, to turn this back on AvalonXQ, it is easy enough to use actual points from Christianity to explain why many people here are not interested in becoming Christian, we shouldn't need to use the extreme ones.

Agreed.

 

[Mr. Scott]

The first problem with that is that it is only a list of commonly occurring fallacies, not every possible fallacy. The second being that not every unsound argument has its own special name. Is your argument an instance of a valid form? Is it sound?

Maybe you can explain how it's unsound, but I think I'm guilty of wishful thinking. I would like a sound position to be able to stand up to robust criticism, but people tend to wither when faced with bullying, or logical fallacies they are unable to defend against.

The shielding of Atheism Plus from criticism is reminiscent of cults like Scientology (and most any religion).

Since criticism of A+ is forbidden within its halls, it's natural to expect it will be concentrated elsewhere. I'd hope that people who consider joining the A+ cult google and find this thread to balance their view and make an informed decision.

Wow, I had such a flashback to FREAKS ("we accept her, one of us, gooble gobble").

 

[zooterkin]

Another point is that the JREF forum where we are now is not the same as the JREF. We've been through this before but most JREF officlal or staff (apart from appointed forum admins) either spend virtually no time here or keep their distance. Randi even referred to forum "barking dogs" as a result of one criticism.
We are more or less tolerated here by the JREF.

I think although the staff don't participate here, they are aware that the forum is not just barking dogs. The involvement of forum members at TAM is one way that the forum is visible to the JREF itself.

That could change and easily alienate many, as the upheavals at the old Dawkins forums showed, though I was never a member there.

I was; for less than a day. I joined, and they closed it...

While this forum is not the JREF, at the moment as far as I can see, in any official sense, Atheism Plus IS the forum and unless there is some great real life activism taking place elsewhere so far IS ONLY the forum.

I'm not even sure what form that activism could take.

 

[Humes fork]

I'm surprised this thing hasn't disappeared into the footnotes of cyberspace yet.

Let's summon the most common critiques. I find that all critiques of atheism+ boils down to two things:

1. Atheism should not be attached to a political program, except perhaps secularism.

2. The atheism+ individuals are characterized by paranoia, conformism and cult-mindedness.

They do seem terribly frightened about atheist libertarians hiding under their beds, for some reason. Where exactly are those hordes of atheist libertarians? I've never seen them.

 

[zooterkin]

They do seem terribly frightened about atheist libertarians hiding under their beds, for some reason. Where exactly are those hordes of atheist libertarians? I've never seen them.

I've seen a couple wandering around Las Vegas, and one of them on his own could be mistaken for a horde.

 

[RandFan]

I've decided to stop calling myself a feminist and simply refer to myself as a humanist. I'm not personally anti-feminism but with the anti-porn feminists and now this new crop that seems to have what is IMO the same dismissive attitudes against those who do not toe their line. I've lost interest in the label. I'm most interested in women being equal, having choices and being free from sexual harassment and misogyny. Those are my primary goals. There are others when it comes to the empowerment of women but that's a good start. In any event, I think Humanism embodies my priorities best.

 

[squealpiggy]

I've decided to stop calling myself a feminist and simply refer to myself as a humanist. I'm not personally anti-feminism but with the anti-porn feminists and now this new crop that seems to have what is IMO the same dismissive attitudes against those who do not toe their line. I've lost interest in the label. I'm most interested in women being equal, having choices and being free from sexual harassment and misogyny. Those are my primary goals. There are others when it comes to the empowerment of women but that's a good start. In any event, I think Humanism embodies my priorities best.

The problem with the label is twofold:

1. It isn't in fact one particular ideology. It's a connection of ideologies and interpretations with the same basic aim of promoting the rights of women.

2. Some of those subgroups of feminism insist that their interpretation is the only viable interpretation and that anyone else in the feminist umbrella is one of THEM. Not a TRUE feminist.

 

[appalling]

So, what would explain how Atheism+ could be a good thing and fully defensible, while no one would be engaged in a robust defense of it here? The JREF has detractors of all its main positions very busily arguing against us on this forum. Why hardly a whisper from Atheism Plus in a thread named for it?

I like peanut butter. I wouldn't need to go to an anti-peanut butter forum to defend it. The worth of peanut butter is not dependent on a defense of it on an internet forum.

A test of the quality of an idea is its ability to stand up to challenges. Atheism Plus cowers from challenges to their ideology, which suggests its proponents are aware its brittle foundation.

You seem to have a strong opinion about this. It just seems like politicking against other atheists though. Funny thing to be worried about. Maybe they don't feel like debating people who characterize them as cowerers. It seems a little schoolyard, somehow.

Edit:

A test of the quality of an idea is its ability to stand up to challenges.

I just have to say, looking at this sentence, that you are saying a test of something is how it does when it's challenged. I find I must agree with you; challenges are great tests, and vice versa.

 

[Stout]

I think that Jen probably thought this would become a civilized place, but, as you said, it became dysfunctional. Let not forget at the Geneses was FtB, which is known to be filled with tolerance and understanding.

I'm not really familiar with the FtB however my reading over at the slymepit have convinced me that A+ is enough political woo in my life. I fail to see how anybody with a rational mind could think that skepticism and social justice would be compatible and fail to realise that the most vocal dysfunctional elements would take over.

My guess is it'll settle down in a year or so to a core group of SJ regulars. That's what happened with the SJ forum that I used to read ( I replaced it with A+, more drama ) and they're a core group of about 60 people who no longer fight amongst themselves unless somebody screws up and accidentally "slips into using the dominant language" like saying "kwit yer bitchin'

Then fur flies.

Strange thing about those guys is they disappear for a while and come back as a different username. The mods seem to know about it and condone it however I fail to see the purpose unless it's some sort of strange reinvention.

I sure am curious as to what's posted in that secret subforum over at A+. If it's serious enough that members are fearing for their lives, their jobs, their kids, I'd be deleting that stuff ASAP. As even a 12 year old knows, the internet is forever.

Oh, and don't use the same username all over the place too if security is an issue. I know more about Aplussers than I care to admit. I have names, livejournals, twitters, OK Cupids. Enough to plan and execute a full scale harassment campaign.

I'm not going to do it though, even if I am in some far flung third world country on somebody else's internet connection but, damn, it's tempting sometimes.

 

[Mr. Scott]

I like peanut butter. I wouldn't need to go to an anti-peanut butter forum to defend it. The worth of peanut butter is not dependent on a defense of it on an internet forum.



You seem to have a strong opinion about this. It just seems like politicking against other atheists though. Funny thing to be worried about. Maybe they don't feel like debating people who characterize them as cowerers. It seems a little schoolyard, somehow.

Edit:


I just have to say, looking at this sentence, that you are saying a test of something is how it does when it's challenged. I find I must agree with you; challenges are great tests, and vice versa.

Wow, you added the edit after I started crafting my reply, but just before I hit "post."

I don't think peanut butter is a good analogy. No one is claiming peanut butter is dripping poison into a movement which is, to many, extremely important, and refers to just some minor thing like the meaning of life and, because of religion's tendency to wage war, sect against sect, about the survival of life on Earth.

I agree the schoolyard is a good analogy. The Atheism Plus clique is like the girl cliques I remember from 8th grade: defensive, exclusive, narcissistic, and dehumanizing outsiders.

It's a shame to see a vital intellectual pursuit (Atheism) splinter off a sophomoric, erotophobic cult of magical thinkers (the Plussers), now a gift to our Theist critics.

 

[kellyb]

I've decided to stop calling myself a feminist and simply refer to myself as a humanist. I'm not personally anti-feminism but with the anti-porn feminists and now this new crop that seems to have what is IMO the same dismissive attitudes against those who do not toe their line. I've lost interest in the label. I'm most interested in women being equal, having choices and being free from sexual harassment and misogyny. Those are my primary goals. There are others when it comes to the empowerment of women but that's a good start. In any event, I think Humanism embodies my priorities best.

I still strongly identify as feminist, but I'll certainly be cool with you if you agree that the rape threats folks are FUBAR? (and after years of cohabitating here with you, I'm assuming it's likely that you find the rape threatening folks terrible? Or am I misinterpreting you? I find it unlikely.)