Atheism is a faith.

[Mr Clingford]

See, I don't think it does. I like the idea of Christ as a teacher who tried as hard as he could to get people to be better to each other. You don't have to be perfect to teach. If Xtianity is undermined by a single tiny foible on the part of Jesus, then it was on wobbly ground to start with.

In terms of whether Jesus is God and all that shtick it is vital, but in terms of Jesus having some good and subversive stuff to say, true, it isn't undermined.

This guy?
[qimg]http://www.kingfeatures.com/features/comics/images/_char/popeye_swee.gif[/qimg]
Well, I suppose you could make him your avatar.

Back to the spinach it is. (Actually I've just made some mince pies and I've already started on the home-made mulled wine, burp, yum). My avatar is of an American great, a Giant Sequoia which lives just a few minutes from me (damn yanks taking over here ). I like trees so visiting North and East California, Coast Redwoods and then General Sherman and his friends was wonderful!

 

[sphenisc]

See, I don't think it does. I like the idea of Christ as a teacher who tried as hard as he could to get people to be better to each other. You don't have to be perfect to teach. If Xtianity is undermined by a single tiny foible on the part of Jesus, then it was on wobbly ground to start with.

It does.

The conclusion section here

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcsi2.htm

explains why, in that "Jesus is God and thus, by definition, is incapable of committing a sinful act." If Jesus committed a sinful act then he isn't God. The deity of Christ being pretty central to Xtianity.

[You may also find some better examples of Jesus' sins on the way through.]

 

[Tricky]

In terms of whether Jesus is God and all that shtick it is vital, but in terms of Jesus having some good and subversive stuff to say, true, it isn't undermined.

Agreed. Is that shtick really that important to you? Why?

My avatar is of an American great, a Giant Sequoia which lives just a few minutes from me (damn yanks taking over here ). I like trees so visiting North and East California, Coast Redwoods and then General Sherman and his friends was wonderful!

I'm with you there. Here's Ms. Tricky, literally a tree-hugger, peering from behind one of the giants.

 

[The Atheist]

Ha ha! I'm not much of a monarchist, but the idea of President Blair sounds like the devil we don't know. I think you need a go on the pipe of peace, man, all this pent-up aggression released on the internet!

I blame my dad. He was one of the extremely rare born-within-the-sound of Bow Bell Cockneys who was an anti-royalist.

Now sometimes I don't know whether your statements about Xtianity are a wind up

Frequently

or because you're not sure of something. Eg, the above picture of god, sitting, twiddling his thumbs, waiting around isn't accurate

There are just so many different versions, from that to the fundies' Hellfire! Damnation! Brimstone! ones...

because orthodox Xtianity has God also active in the world through the Holy Spirit.

Ok, let's hop off here.

Now, my understanding, from you is that your god doesn't interfere in the physical world. Are you now saying he does? Because, if so, we're going to have to go all the way back to Paulhoff's questions about why kids starve to death and why the baby featured in Beerina's sig (thanks, btw, that is the best I've ever seen) drowned in her mother's puke.

If your holy spirit thing is active in the world, then he has a lot more to answer for than the one who sits and watches, taking names and waiting until we all get up to meet with him.

Which one is yours? I know what orthodorx believe, I want to know what YOU believe.

Xtianity would say that the sins of someone are not part of the essential "me-ness"; Jesus showed that it is quite possible to be sinless and human and perhaps the state in which someone can be fully human is to be sinless. The q of where do these traits go is a good one. In Prot land it appears that this process of glorification/theosis is glossed over somewhat and happens as one 'enters heaven' but I find Catholic and Orthodox ideas more appealing. The idea is more of a purgatory, a 'place' where one can come to terms with who one is and work through 'issues', for want of a better word, (sounds like a divine therapy clinic, doesn't it!). In some ways it could be hellish - facing up to how one has hurt others and oneself and then undergoing change is painful.

**Shudder**^6

Mate, this heaven of yours is sounding more like hell to me everyday. That, or an American sitcom, which would be hell, so overall, it sounds like hell...

1 Full of catholics - not my favourite people.
2 Full of fundies - worse.
3 TWO frigging ex-wives that I'm going to have (and want ) to be nice to.
4 TWO frigging ex-mothers-in-law, ditto the above^4.
5 I will like, admire and respect people I absolutely despise for their lack of spine.
6 I will have to spend all of eternity being nice.

Hell sounds a picnic by comparison.

 

[CapelDodger]

Can you imagine rugby? Every game would have to be a 50-all draw.

It loomed large in my mind when I was posting. I like few things better than a gathering around the fire with a barrel of beer and choice spirits (it's a spiritual thing) to watch Wales play on the box. I don't see how Heaven can offer that experience. The mechanics of working it elude me. The team would never change, for a start. And that simple pleasure of a father buying his son what he thinks is his first pint on a match-day, introducing him to his adult world. That's life, and not applicable to afterlife.

Oh what a tonking you guys gave us. But that's the spiritual price you pay for the good days. Not that you'd have as much experience as me with the bad days ... All Blacks, gods amongst men.

 

[CapelDodger]

Regarding the discussion of Jesus's nature, the only reference we have is a bunch of anecdotes collected from and written down by people with a serious case of the religion-bug. Jesus didn't show us anything. A bit more carving would have helped, maybe his own frickin' book, Mohammed had one ghosted for him so why not Jesus? Apart from the New Testament Jesus flits across the world scene invisibly. Didn't show, didn't tell.

 

[CapelDodger]

Behind the altar is a huge painting of Jesus which to me seemed rather homo-erotic, even for the Catholic Church. He's depicted as being very Northern European looking with strawberry-blond hair and piercing blue eyes. I leaned over to my wife and stage whispered "Funny, he doesn't look Jewish."

A common depiction is based on the Emperor Justinian, who built the Hagia Sophia -"Solomon, I have outdone thee!" - which was richly decorated, and guess whose face Jesus had? Nobody Jewish, that's for sure.

 

[The Atheist]

Regarding the discussion of Jesus's nature, the only reference we have is a bunch of anecdotes collected from and written down by people with a serious case of the religion-bug. Jesus didn't show us anything. A bit more carving would have helped, maybe his own frickin' book, Mohammed had one ghosted for him so why not Jesus? Apart from the New Testament Jesus flits across the world scene invisibly. Didn't show, didn't tell.

I was having a bit of a go at the christians at SOF the other day as to why there isn't one single written record of Jesus.

"Nobody had paper", "Nobody could write", etc., came the dismissals. "Baloney", I said then, and say now. If a bloke was actually the son of god and could do tricks as magic as raising the dead, some record would survive. We have written records of gods older than Jesus, his lack of one just further confirms my belief that he never existed ouside of a magic-mushroom-fuelled fantasy.

 

[soarwing]

There might have been someone that the biblical Jesus was based on.... not the son of a god, mind you....., but there isn't a great case for even that. The Jesus in the Bible doesn't seem to enjoy any more evidence than the other god-men that came years before him.

Jesus was invented so people could eat pork chops again without being stoned to death.

That's why modern Christianity is so popular - You don't need to DO anything or make any significant sacrifices and there still will be a Christian minister or church somewhere that will not "stress" what the Bible actually teaches one to do. (That's a good thing, for the most part.)

The only reason some Christians think that their religion is really based on love, kindness and other non-violent activities, is that free-thinkers, atheists, progressives and other low dogma religions have rightly denounced the idiotic claims and cruelty that is Christianity.

 

[CapelDodger]

In terms of whether Jesus is God and all that shtick it is vital ...

Why? Either it's all bollocks or you'll find out all about it when you're dead. Which, in the big picture, won't be long. Theology is a canker around the weevil called rationality in the body spiritual. Forget it. Detail is not the friend of belief.

... but in terms of Jesus having some good and subversive stuff to say, true, it isn't undermined.

I like someone who uses "subversive" in a positive manner. It sets us apart from established religion, which I'm sure we're both glad of.

Back to the spinach it is. (Actually I've just made some mince pies and I've already started on the home-made mulled wine, burp, yum). My avatar is of an American great, a Giant Sequoia which lives just a few minutes from me (damn yanks taking over here ). I like trees so visiting North and East California, Coast Redwoods and then General Sherman and his friends was wonderful!

I've not had the pleasure of visiting but I saw a Planet Earth last week that did the subject proud, as far as TV can. Truly majestic.

Tricky, that's the cutest photo I've seen in a good while .

 

[CapelDodger]

I was having a bit of a go at the christians at SOF the other day as to why there isn't one single written record of Jesus.

"Nobody had paper", "Nobody could write", etc., came the dismissals. "Baloney", I said then, and say now. If a bloke was actually the son of god and could do tricks as magic as raising the dead, some record would survive. We have written records of gods older than Jesus, his lack of one just further confirms my belief that he never existed ouside of a magic-mushroom-fuelled fantasy.

There's at least one other explanation. When Christianity became identified with the Empire, with Constantine, they gained influence over the public records. There's a noticeable lack of information about Judaea in the relevant period. Perhaps the "real" Jesus, or close approximation, was revealed in the records as a rebel who got his just deserts. Such records would not escape Eusebius et al's attentions.

Maximian, Western Emperor at the time of Constantine, commissioned and published Acti Pilati, a book that was to be distributed throughout his domain. It purported to be a refutation of Christianity based on the official records of Pilate's time in Judaea and of the real Jesus. All we know of it is from contemporary Christian criticism, no copy has yet been found.

When you consider the wealth of Graeco-Roman history, and the cultural status it carried, it's noticeable that we depend so much on Josephus to document a very important period and region in Roman history. To me, it smacks of interference and censorship.

 

[CapelDodger]

Jesus was invented so people could eat pork chops again without being stoned to death.

I think you have a cart-and-horse problem here. Jesus was invented so that men could join without having their foreskins cut off. Eating pork was the least of it, they were already doing that.

I know someone, atheist from early days but brought up Jewish, who still doesn't eat pork. When he realised that pork was just another meat he transferred his gag-reflex to meat in general, rather than embrace the bacon-sandwich. So he's vegetarian.

All that stuff was in the Old Covenant between the god and the Jews, Jesus is the next stage, the New Covenant with the wide world. The Old Covenant had served a primitive society, the New Covenant was launched by the god to serve the resulting sophisticated society. A Graeco-Roman society. Odd , but there it is. Gods are like that, apparently. Inscrutable.

 

[Tricky]

There might have been someone that the biblical Jesus was based on.... not the son of a god, mind you....., but there isn't a great case for even that. The Jesus in the Bible doesn't seem to enjoy any more evidence than the other god-men that came years before him.

My feeling is that it was probably an amalgamation of different characters of the day. Just like every damn quote on the internet gets attributed to George Carlin these days, probably every interesting story became part of the "Jesus Anthology".

Jesus was invented so people could eat pork chops again without being stoned to death.

LOL. That's an interesting take. I hadn't thought of it, but it makes some sense. After all, the Anglican Church came about so Henry VIII could ditch his wives which was forbidden under Catholicism.

That's why modern Christianity is so popular - You don't need to DO anything or make any significant sacrifices and there still will be a Christian minister or church somewhere that will not "stress" what the Bible actually teaches one to do. (That's a good thing, for the most part.)

There's actually some good stuff in the Bible. Jesus is, for the most part, a pretty good role model. Even if religion uses fear of hell and greed for heaven to motivate people to do good, I can't really complain if they actually DO good. But of course, they don't always. Still many, like Mr. Clingford, try very hard to. I won't sneer at them for trying in the name of someone I don't believe in.

The only reason some Christians think that their religion is really based on love, kindness and other non-violent activities, is that free-thinkers, atheists, progressives and other low dogma religions have rightly denounced the idiotic claims and cruelty that is Christianity.

I dunno. The bible is so very subject to interpretation. I can easily see why one interpretation is that Christianity teaches love and kindness. But religion, like all of society, evolves. When society in general changes its moral compass, religion follows in lockstep. Some of the US forefathers were deists who had no particular attachment to the dogma of Christianity, yet they still had slaves. That is what people did in those days. So I'm not going to blame modern Christianity for all of the horrible things that Christians did in the past. Other religions did horrible things too, as did non-religious people.

I will, however, take to task anyone who does a thing that is morally reprehensible and uses their religion as an excuse. If you hate gays, that is your business, but don't claim that you only do so because God told you to. Take some personal responsibility for your morality.

 

[CapelDodger]

I'm not sure that they recognized the right of the woman as much as they recognized Jesus's authority.

I was taught it as the simple woman (!) recognising Jesus's specialness while the men were (as ever) fixated on practical matters.

 

[CapelDodger]

My feeling is that it was probably an amalgamation of different characters of the day. Just like every damn quote on the internet gets attributed to George Carlin these days, probably every interesting story became part of the "Jesus Anthology".

Absolutely.

LOL. That's an interesting take. I hadn't thought of it, but it makes some sense. After all, the Anglican Church came about so Henry VIII could ditch his wives which was forbidden under Catholicism.

Unless you've got the Pull to get a Bull. Henry was out-pulled by the Holy Roman Emperor. So he called the Papal bluff - and won a fortune.

actually some good stuff in the Bible. Jesus is, for the most part, a pretty good role model.

Wouldn't it be nice if people were good? Every culture has stories about really good people, constantly repeated. If people could really be "good" they'd have done it by now and there'd be no need for the stories.

 

[Tricky]

Wouldn't it be nice if people were good? Every culture has stories about really good people, constantly repeated. If people could really be "good" they'd have done it by now and there'd be no need for the stories.

Nope. Who would they struggle against?

Star Wars would be pretty boring without Darth Vadar.

 

[soarwing]

Jesus did teach a few things that I think are wise. But so what? He was just parroting things that had been said for centuries before him.

As depicted in the Bible, Jesus isn't the sharpest tool in the shed. Some of the
"miracles" he performed were pointless and sometimes just plain dumb. The man cursed a fig tree because it didn't have figs, FOR THE TIME OF FIGS WAS NOT YET. And the pigs! What did they do to deserve Jesus casting the demons into them.....forcing them to run over a cliff?!

What a moron.

Not to mention Jesus' belief in, and repeated sadistic references to - hellfire and gnashing of teeth, etc. At least the O.T. god seemed content with killing and maiming little babies and causing general suffering for a limited amount of time. Jesus and his "merciful" and "moral" teachings put an end to temporary misery and pain.... oh yes..... Jesus made no effort to hide what he thought should happen to those that simply don't believe.

Jesus preached "psychological self-castration". He was a dolt, a ridiculous nutjob, who said and apparently thought things that land people in asylums today. (IF actually existed, of course.) That's a Big IF, I know.

Praise JesuS-Suh!

 

[Mr Clingford]

Well, soarwing, your vehemence is impressive and humorous. Care to back up your assertions with any evidence?

 

[Mr Clingford]

Why? Either it's all bollocks or you'll find out all about it when you're dead. Which, in the big picture, won't be long. Theology is a canker around the weevil called rationality in the body spiritual. Forget it. Detail is not the friend of belief.

I was just saying that orthodox Xtianity is reliant on Jesus being God. Don't you mean religion rather than theology?

I like someone who uses "subversive" in a positive manner. It sets us apart from established religion, which I'm sure we're both glad of.

Ah, some of the words of Jesus are so challenging. BTW the father of my partner is English but has lived in Cardiff for the last 25 or so years; also he is in his 50s and an atheist too!

I've not had the pleasure of visiting but I saw a Planet Earth last week that did the subject proud, as far as TV can. Truly majestic.

Damn! I haven't kept proper track of what areas and subjects it was covering. Majestic is a good word. Those trees are venerable inhabitants of this planet.

Tricky, that's the cutest photo I've seen in a good while .

Is there a human amongst those cute trees?

 

[Tricky]

Is there a human amongst those cute trees?

Almost invisible, but leaning out from behind the third tree.