Atheism is a faith.

What's getting your panties all out of shape is that I won't debate YOU.
I'm fine with it now. The thread is there for anyone to see. I'm quite happy with the results. You got bested. End of story.

I keep pointing out that I have a strict quota for debating with fools and you used up your time limit thanks to an incomprehensible inability to understand a simple concept, clearly expressed in very few words.
This is just arrogance. Like I said, you didn't like that I didn't agree with you and you couldn't rebut my arguments so you fall back to personal attack. It's all you have. Personal attack. You accuse me of not understanding a simple concept. The thing is, folks like Taffer know that is not in keeping with who I am. I'm a reasonable person who will discuss and debate in a fair fashion. You aren't which is why you simply call me a fool while refusing to respond to my posts in a reasoned manner.
 
I think you are playing the martyr.
Forgotten that little lesson on ASSUME already? You're not really that good at this are you? I've stolen your security blanket of factuality, evidence and proof and you don't know where to look!

How the hell did you ever manage to stop being a Mormon?

Playing the Arrogant_B_Stard, sure. Martyr, never.
 
As I just explained to Taffer, I have no problem with questions and discussion - even from you. Until that quota's met....
We're now just derailing the thread. I appologize for having done so and to be frank it was to a large extend my fault. Though you did come here and egg me on however that doesn't excuse my actions.

I'm really fine with letting our little spat end TA. I'm very happy with the results particularly those in the other thread. I've pulled the sig and that's that.

Thanks,

RandFan
 
Forgotten that little lesson on ASSUME already? You're not really that good at this are you? I've stolen your security blanket of factuality, evidence and proof and you don't know where to look!

How the hell did you ever manage to stop being a Mormon?

Playing the Arrogant_B_Stard, sure. Martyr, never.
:D Riiight.

Seen my sig? If I had room, I could have twenty different pieces of abuse in it...
Life must be so difficult for you. You go on and on how people give you grief and you keep it in your sig to remind you how you have it so bad.

Sorry, but that was funny.
 
I'm fine with it now. The thread is there for anyone to see. I'm quite happy with the results. You got bested. End of story.
That's good, honey, you just keep consoling yourself with that thought. I won't disabuse of the notion.
This is just arrogance. Like I said, you didn't like that I didn't agree with you and you couldn't rebut my arguments so you fall back to personal attack. It's all you have. Personal attack. You accuse me of not understanding a simple concept. The thing is, folks like Taffer know that is not in keeping with who I am. I'm a reasonable person who will discuss and debate in a fair fashion. You aren't which is why you simply call me a fool while refusing to respond to my posts in a reasoned manner.
Translation: "Waaaaaaaaa, Mommy!!!! That Atheist isn't playing fair. (further translation; "he won't play by MY rules"), Taffer knows what a clever guy I am...[blubber]..."

Ugly, RandFan, quite ugly. You got the "arrogance" part right, though! Congratulations!

Just by the bye, honey. If you ever manage to ask me a question about one of my posts and your question is put in that "fair and reasonable" fashion for which you are, apparently, famed, I might even answer it sensibly! To late for these two threads, though. Maybe next time.
 
Jesus, I would, especially where Huntster's concerned. I could have written down his position before I read it!

Of course, but the principle of charity means I don't wish to assume anything before engaging in a debate.

I'll not deny having a problem with RandFan - I tend to have problems with most of the really outspoken people in here. Seen my sig? If I had room, I could have twenty different pieces of abuse in it, each and every one from an "atheist". He may well be highly intelligent and insightful. One day, I might see that. In the meantime, all I see is a person who takes a contrary view simply for the sake of it, so I take the piss.

That's your perogitive, mate. I wouldn't do it, but I'm not about to tell you what you can or cannot do.

You can see from his posts that he loves it.

I'm not so sure about this. All I can see is someone trying to defend themselves in the face of personal attack. I can't say I'd behave any different, to be honest.

Hey, you're asking the wrong guy, I make my living from fallacies - I couldn't care less how many fallacies a person makes or whether there's any logic used at all. I just don't care about methodology, I care about results. I keep telling everyone - while I'm sceptical about some matters, I am NOT a "sceptic".

One doesn't have to be a 'skeptic' to employ logic in one's arguments.

Take Huntster as an example. He and I think the same way, but disagree on just about everything. RandFan and I agree on just about everything, yet we think in totally different ways. Who am I arguing with and throwing ad hominems at? Who do I have the most arguments with, christians or atheists? Atheists. Why? Because they care about methodology. While I say, "Hey, that round thing's a wheel, let's use it" while RandFan and his buddies are still trying to figure out what colour it should be.

This is because many here value the scientific method. I most certainly do. The key point of the scientific method is the method. Hence, logic et al. But it's fair enough, I'm not here to tell you what to think or how to behave. :)
 
:D Riiight.

Life must be so difficult for you. You go on and on how people give you grief and you keep it in your sig to remind you how you have it so bad.

Sorry, but that was funny.
I "go on about how people give me grief"? Really? I wear the comments with pride, sure, but to say I "go on" about it is to create (quick total up) your seventh (I'm pretty sure) strawman in the past twenty-four hours, a new record!
 
I "go on about how people give me grief"? Really? I wear the comments with pride, sure, but to say I "go on" about it is to create (quick total up) your seventh (I'm pretty sure) strawman in the past twenty-four hours, a new record!
Why bring it up while you are bemoaning your plight to Taffer to justify your actions? Martyr.
 
That's good, honey, you just keep consoling yourself with that thought. I won't disabuse of the notion.
The arguments are there unanswered.

Just by the bye, honey. If you ever manage to ask me a question about one of my posts and your question is put in that "fair and reasonable" fashion for which you are, apparently, famed, I might even answer it sensibly! To late for these two threads, though. Maybe next time.
I don't really care TA. I was more than reasonable and sensible in the other thread. Your actions were completely uncalled for and unprovoked. I'm happy for anyone to go check the thread out. I stand by the arguments that I made.
 
Of course, but the principle of charity means I don't wish to assume anything before engaging in a debate.
Must be that damned lefty, liberal Uni you attend!
I'm not so sure about this. All I can see is someone trying to defend themselves in the face of personal attack. I can't say I'd behave any different, to be honest.
Well, if you're right, he'd be smarter to put me on ignore, that's what it's there for...
One doesn't have to be a 'skeptic' to employ logic in one's arguments.
And the peculiar adjunct to that seems to be that sceptics can't use common sense in arguments. Odd.
This is because many here value the scientific method. I most certainly do. The key point of the scientific method is the method. Hence, logic et al. But it's fair enough, I'm not here to tell you what to think or how to behave. :)
I value the scientific method as well, but I don't slavishly adhere to it. As I've said, I have no problem with logical arguments and do in fact base my own faith (in a belated effort to return to the OP) on the work of scientists - among others. I said to you a couple of weeks ago that my learning is based more on Waikeria than Waikato, Massey or Otago. This should all be proof of that!
 
Must be that damned lefty, liberal Uni you attend!

LOL :D
You're right, we're all a bunch of hairies down here. :D

Well, if you're right, he'd be smarter to put me on ignore, that's what it's there for...And the peculiar adjunct to that seems to be that sceptics can't use common sense in arguments. Odd.

Common sense has no part to play in arguments, as it is quite often wrong.

I value the scientific method as well, but I don't slavishly adhere to it. As I've said, I have no problem with logical arguments and do in fact base my own faith (in a belated effort to return to the OP) on the work of scientists - among others. I said to you a couple of weeks ago that my learning is based more on Waikeria than Waikato, Massey or Otago. This should all be proof of that!

As I said, this is your perogative. I do slavishly adhere to it as often as I can. Must be the science major in me. :D
 
Why bring it up while you are bemoaning your plight to Taffer to justify your actions? Martyr.
I am seriously beginning to doubt these people who claim that you're quite smart. When you've done cherry-picking, creating strawmen and making assumptions, ad hominems and appeals to authority, you might like to check out reading and more importantly, understanding context. That, I think is your biggest hurdle and there's no shame in that - lots of people have reading difficluties and you are clearly one, if you think the statement about my sig is an attempt at martyrdom. I'll grant you that you're clutching at straws (makes a change from building strawmen, I hope!) and that's a handy one.
 
I am seriously beginning to doubt these people who claim that you're quite smart. When you've done cherry-picking, creating strawmen and making assumptions, ad hominems...
? Talk about calling the kettle black.

...you might like to check out reading and more importantly, understanding context.
It is precisely because of context that I call you a martyr. You were justifying your boorish behavior because of all of the "abuse" you receive.

...if you think the statement about my sig is an attempt at martyrdom.
See, now that's a strawman. I did not simply say it was your sig but your pointing out the "abuse" (your word) that you receive to justify your personal attack against me. That is quite simply playing the martyr.

I know you think all of the abuse hides the facts. It doesn't.
 
LOL :D
You're right, we're all a bunch of hairies down here. :D
:D
Common sense has no part to play in arguments, as it is quite often wrong.
Nooo, that's a shocking answer. Common sense isn't if it's wrong! You should spend more time at the 'Brook and less time at uni.
As I said, this is your perogative. I do slavishly adhere to it as often as I can. Must be the science major in me. :D
That one, I'll give ya.

Cheers
 
Well, fortunately, it's bedtime here and I've spent quite enough of the day playing games with you, so I'll finish up with this post then let you have the floor...
? Talk about calling the kettle black.
Nope, sorry, wrong one. I freely admit to use of ad hominem. It's a way of life. I'm just an ill-educated bum.
It is precisely because of context that I call you a martyr. You were justifying your boorish behavior because of all of the "abuse" you receive.
Wrong in so many ways that I hesitate to even point it out. Context, RandFan, learn it, treasure it, context is your friend. (Well it can be, once you learn to use it.)
See, now that's a strawman. I did not simply say it was your sig but your pointing out the "abuse" (your word) that you receive to justify your personal attack against me. That is quite simply playing the martyr.
Mate, I'd love to play you at poker! Wrong again. I have absolutely lost count the number of times you've been wrong today, but it must be some kind of a record.
I know you think all of the abuse hides the facts. It doesn't.
Aha, the final assumption for the day. I know with 100% certainty that abuse won't hide the facts. That's why I'm quite happy to sit back and slag you off - you don't even know what the argument is!

Adios...
 
I am seriously beginning to doubt these people who claim that you're quite smart. When you've done cherry-picking, creating strawmen and making assumptions, ad hominems and appeals to authority, you might like to check out reading and more importantly, understanding context. That, I think is your biggest hurdle and there's no shame in that - lots of people have reading difficluties and you are clearly one, if you think the statement about my sig is an attempt at martyrdom. I'll grant you that you're clutching at straws (makes a change from building strawmen, I hope!) and that's a handy one.

Woah, mate. :eek:

Ok, honestly I don't like to get involved in these things, and to be honest if someone said something like this to anyone else I'd feel just the same, but I have to disagree with almost everything here. RandFan may not be perfect, no-one is, but I haven't seen any evidence of any reading difficuilties, nor does he seem to cherry pick or almost any of the other things you accuse him of. I don't claim to have read everything RandFan has posted, so I can't say for certain, but from what I've seen here in R&P he is, as I said before, actually quite logical. See above where he agreed with my definition of an appeal to authority fallacy, admitted and appended his answer. Also see above where he has claimed responsibility for this whole sling-fest, and has asked that it stop due to derailing this thread. Because of this, I feel he is quite the opposite of what you claim here.
 
My definition comes from exactly how the word was created. A, a prefix meaning “not” and theism, meaning “the belief that god or gods exist”, atheism is “not” – “the belief that god or gods exist”. It is “not theism”, it is just like “not red” or “not forward”.
Not quite correct, chris. "Atheism" is any belief which is not "theism", it is not a held view point unto itself. There are many different types of atheist, among them the "there is no god" and the "I have no belief in god" stances.
Sorry, lads, but I have to disagree with you with regards to the etymological argument. The word "atheism" consists of three components:
  • the prefix "a-" from the Greek prefix meaning "no" (in the sense of "none") or "not";
  • the root "-the-" from the Greek "theos" meaning "god"; and
  • the suffix "-ism," derived from the Greek suffix "-ismos," initially "used to form a noun of action from a verb" as Wikipedia puts it.
Now, your claim is that the prefix "-a" reflects on the root and suffix combined, i.e. "atheism" is "not godism." I'm inclined to think that the prefix reflects on the root alone, i.e. "atheism" means "no god-ism," the positive belief that there is no god, and indeed, various other posters have cited references pointing out that this was, indeed, originally what "atheism" meant. Compare the adjective "athanatos": going by the components, you might read it to mean simply "not dead," but it actually means "immortal." "No death" rather than "not (yet) death." It's not entirely analogous, but it gives you an idea.

However, I stress the word "originally" because this is a good example of how the usage of a word can drift away from its etymological origins. "Atheism" may originally have meant "the positive belief that there are no gods," and it still does mean that, but these days, it is also commonly used to include, in addition to its original meaning, the simple lack of positive belief that one more gods do exist.

As another example, take the Saxon word huscarl. These days, it's only used by military historians, and it refers to members of Saxon nobles' personal guards; they were better equipped, armored and trained than the rank and file, and are considered to be the "élite" of any Saxon army, such as the one that faced William the Conqueror's Normans at Hastings in 1066. But the original meaning of the word can be divined from the most literal translation into modern English: "house churl." These were members of the lowest social rank of freemen (and as such, they still ranked above slaves) who were employed by a noble as domestic servants. No noble, not even the king, could afford to keep a guard of professional soldiers on hand full time, so he kept weapons and armor on hand and had his tougher stable hands and whatnot trained in their use, and in the event of war, he formed them into his personal guard. The same process explains how a common Germanic root became Knecht ("servant, hired hand") in German, and knight in English.
 
According to one wiki source, the 'a' prefix doesn't mean "no" but rather "not" or "an absence of".

In Greek, a- is a prefix (alpha privativum) meaning "not" or "devoid of," used in many borrowed words in English, German and Romance languages (for example, amoral, asexual, arhythmic).
Source.

Thus, "atheist" is not "no theism" but "not theism", a difference which is subtle but important. And this is acording to the root of the word, so I would argue this is its 'original' meaning. And even if it is not, it is the literal meaning of the word, and how it is used and defined today in philosophy and metaphysics.
 

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