Atheism is a faith.

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
There is no need for apologies. We can rejoice together that we have risen above this obstacle and can move forward!

So, do you see what hammegk and I have suggested?:

Faith is necessary for decisions (even if it is a small measure of faith), thus atheism (as the dictionary suggests) is a faith itself?

Yes, I see what you're saying, but I do not agree. It is not faith I'm basing my opinion on, but doubt. I do not hold faith that the negative is true, I do not hold faith that the positive is true, what I do is hold doubt that either of them are true until shown otherwise.

Then you are agnostic, and that is a very honorable position to be in.

I do not think agnosticism is correct, because I feel that if god(s) want to prove their existence they most likely could, so I don't believe it is absolutely unknowable as agnosticism means.

You are correct. If God wanted to prove His existence, He could. However, He hasn't. Therefore, we are rendered to accept, reject, or remain indifferent.

 

[Jimbo07]

Sorry, as I said, it was 290.

Yeah, I saw that. And just for fun I went back and read the actual post...

I want to be clear that I don't accept indifference being equal to atheism... at least not in the sense that I am using it.

I'll agree with a general sense of agnosticism that has something to do with lacking knowledge. The apathetic part applies to the question itself. There's probably nothing new in trying to resovle God's existence/non-existence. Simply being unnecessary does not make something untrue.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

I've highlighted the appropriate portions of the definition of religion.

Appropriate to what? You have shown nothing.

 

[I less than three logic]

Then you are agnostic, and that is a very honorable position to be in.



You are correct. If God wanted to prove His existence, He could. However, He hasn't. Therefore, we are rendered to accept, reject, or remain indifferent.

Remaining indifferent is still atheism. We're just going in circles. Every color except for red, even no color at all, is still not red. Any belief except for the belief that god or gods exist, even no belief at all, is still not believing, it is still atheism.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
That is incorrect. Zero is agnosticism. Atheism is some degree of the negative. Zero requires no faith. The positive and negative do, because it cannot be known. Zero is the default.

You are not being consistent. Refer to post #209, you've already said that agnosticism requires faith, and that it is atheism.

The relevent portion of Post #290:

Quote:
Theism is the belief in the existence of god or gods. Atheism, “not theism”, is anything, and that means anything, that is not “the belief in the existence of god or gods”. Indifference is not “the belief in the existence of god or gods”, so indifference is atheism.

Correct, and it is still a belief, because it is incomplete knowledge, thus a measure of faith or belief is required to arrive at that decision.

For reference, agnosticism:

–noun
1. the doctrine or belief of an agnostic.
2. an intellectual doctrine or attitude affirming the uncertainty of all claims to ultimate knowledge.

By acknowledging "the uncertainty of all claims to ultimate knowledge", it is the default, by default.

However, it is still a belief, because it is not known.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
I've highlighted the appropriate portions of the definition of religion.

Appropriate to what?

Appropriate to the fact that the definition of "religion" actually demonstrates that "atheism" is a religion.

You have shown nothing.

Correct. You did.

I just highlighted it.

Thanks.

(BTW, you seem to do this on a regular basis. You're a great debate ally.)

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Appropriate to the fact that the definition of "religion" actually demonstrates that "atheism" is a religion.

Except that it doesn't. All you have shown is an ability to interpret text through your own biases to assume something which says nothing at all relevant bolsters your own opinion. Not all that impressive a feat.

 

[Huntster]

Remaining indifferent is still atheism.

No, it is not. It is in opposition. It denies. It disbelieves.

We're just going in circles.

Yup. And it appears that we are in for plenty more cycles.

Every color except for red, even no color at all, is still not red.

Correct, however, yellow (while not being red) is still a color, and clear is not colored at all.

Therefore, red (Godly) and yellow (Un-Godly) are colors, while clear (Don't give a sheet, don't have a position, don't care, don't consider it, openly state that it can be either way as far as they care, or openly state that nobody knows) is not a color. It's clear. There's no tint. It's default.

Any belief except for the belief that god or gods exist, even no belief at all, is still not believing, it is still atheism.

We'll get there. Keep working at it.

 

[I less than three logic]

The relevent portion of Post #290:



For reference, agnosticism:



By acknowledging "the uncertainty of all claims to ultimate knowledge", it is the default, by default.

However, it is still a belief, because it is not known.

I never said it wasn't a belief. We're talking about faith, which does not always mean the exact same thing as belief. It is a belief, of the opinion type, based on doubt, not on faith.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
Appropriate to the fact that the definition of "religion" actually demonstrates that "atheism" is a religion.

Except that it doesn't. All you have shown is an ability to interpret text through your own biases to assume something which says nothing at all relevant bolsters your own opinion. Not all that impressive a feat.

Anybody out there get this? I know there is.

I can use some help here.

 

[I less than three logic]

No, it is not. It is in opposition. It denies. It disbelieves.

No, this is your straw man of atheism. Atheism does include the section within the area of disbelief, but doesn't require it. It is defined in the negative, it covers absolutely everything that is not the belief that god or gods exist. The same as not red covers absolutely evertying that isn't red. Clear is not red.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
The relevent portion of Post #290:

For reference, agnosticism:

By acknowledging "the uncertainty of all claims to ultimate knowledge", it is the default, by default.

However, it is still a belief, because it is not known.

I never said it wasn't a belief. We're talking about faith, which does not always mean the exact same thing as belief. It is a belief, of the opinion type, based on doubt, not on faith.

Please carefully illustrate the difference between "belief" and "faith".

 

[Jimbo07]

No, this is your straw man of atheism. Atheism does include the section within the area of disbelief, but doesn't require it. It is defined in the negative, it covers absolutely everything that is not the belief that god or gods exist. The same as not red covers absolutely evertying that isn't red. Clear is not red.

Isn't this a little like saying that everyone who's ever had a doubt is a skeptic? Or... anyone who's ever added two numbers has done math? It feels a litle too all-inclusive to be of much use.

However, I have heard the religious joke that, "An agnostic is an atheist who lacks the courage of their convictions." So for people who would make that joke, perhaps it is a strong definition (i.e. anyone who does not fully believe in the yarn I am spinning is an atheist, dab-nab it!).

 

[Tricky]

Appropriate to the fact that the definition of "religion" actually demonstrates that "atheism" is a religion.

Except that it doesn't. All you have shown is an ability to interpret text through your own biases to assume something which says nothing at all relevant bolsters your own opinion. Not all that impressive a feat.

Anybody out there get this? I know there is.

I can use some help here.

He disagrees with you.

Refers to your selection and changing of the definitions you use (bias) and assuming (using your own beliefs as assumptions to interpret the posts of others) resulting in (deliberate?) misunderstanding of what they have said.

This is a fairly common technique among believers on these boards, even those less clever than you.

There you go. Maybe you ought to try some of that learning that is not based on repetition. It really is an enormous boon to reading comprehension.

You're welcome.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Then I'll spell it out for you...

Atheism, as defined above, is a position (a doctrine, a belief, call it what you will) on a single question: the existence or non-existence of God.

So, let's look at the definitions of religion you highlighted...

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe
So, religion is concerned with the universe and what it's for, not God, which is what atheism is concerned with.

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
This definition is merely for the picking out of the common ground among various sects of a religion as given in (1). Unless something can be classed by (1) as a religion--as atheism cannot--this is irrelevant.

3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

Atheists share (by definition) one belief, and no practices. Again, it fails.

5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

No practices, once again.

6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
This one is essentially metaphor. I can't believe you seriously highlighted it.

7. religions, Archaic. religious rites.
And, um, what religious rites do atheists have again?

So you see, your highlighted entries completely fail to show that atheism is a religion. That you believe it did show this, I can only conclude that you are so blinded by your bias that it affects your ability to read and comprehend dictionaries, believing them to support you when they do not.

 

[Tricky]

Please carefully illustrate the difference between "belief" and "faith".

Using my own words:

Belief - acceptance that a proposition is true. May be based on evidence, indoctrination, or anything else.

Faith - acceptance that a proposition is true without evidence.

Funk and Wagnalls may not agree, but that will be the way I will consistantly use them so that you won't be confused.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
No, it is not. It is in opposition. It denies. It disbelieves.

No, this is your straw man of atheism. Atheism does include the section within the area of disbelief, but doesn't require it. It is defined in the negative, it covers absolutely everything that is not the belief that god or gods exist. The same as not red covers absolutely evertying that isn't red. Clear is not red.

Clear is clear. It is colorless. It is neither red, yellow, purple, green, or any other color ever considered. It is colorless.

Theism is a color. Red (Christianity) is a color. Yellow (atheism) is a color. Green (environmentalism/worship-of-Nature) is a color. Purple (worship of wealth/power) is a color. Beige (worship of physics) is a color. Brown (worship of Allah) is a color.

Clear is clear. There is no tint. It is transparent. You can see right through it. There's nothing there. It's agnostic. It doesn't see anything, because it recognizes that it cannot be known, and it doesn't care. It isn't in this debate. It doesn't even find this debate, because it doesn't care, or doesn't even know this debate is occurring. It's completely ignorant, because it doesn't know this is occurring, or it doesn't care to see or acknowledge that you and I are here.

Atheism is active in denial. It openly states that "there is no God or spirituality." It is an active position, one of denial.

That requires faith, because what the atheist is propounding cannot be known.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Atheism is active in denial. It openly states that "there is no God or spirituality." It is an active position, one of denial.

It can be. It does not have to be.

 

[I less than three logic]

Please carefully illustrate the difference between "belief" and "faith".

To use the one both you and hammegk agree with on, the belief that thought exist, according to both of you is not faith. There is irrefutable evidence for ourselves that thought exists. We accept it as true. We believe it is true.

Tricky stated it well, belief is the acceptance of something. It is to hold an opinion. It is to think it is correct.

Faith is to do so without sufficient or any evidence.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

I hope you will not mind a small revision, Tricky.

Faith - acceptance that a proposition is true without evidence and/or in the face of contrary evidence