Atheism is a faith.

[Mr Clingford]

I'll just touch on obvious, QM and Relativity. 102 years ago it was obvious to rational scientific men that time was a constant (it is counter intuitive I would say) and the ideas of QM would be dismissed. Now they have become obvious. I find that terms like 'obvious' can be defined a bit arbitrarily.

It sounds to me like your concept of God is one who is, above all else, fair, and wouldn’t punish someone for something that was either not their fault or was the result of using the tools He gave them. I’ve often commented that I would welcome a truly loving God. Unfortunately, many if not most of the Christian concepts of God depict him as someone who is unfair, petty and tyrannical. It is a pleasure to meet a Christian who does not describe God in that fashion. ‘Course, it means there’s a whole pantsload of scripture that must be either tossed or viewed as metaphorical.

Notions like fairness have been very important to me because I wouldn't want to worship a God who is unfair. If I may I'd like to disagree with your statement that many if not most of the Xtian concepts of God depict him as someone who is unfair, petty and tyrannical. I don't doubt that you have been exposed to these, especially in the Xtianity of kathy, but the loving side of God,s nature is the other side of the coin.

The way it appears to me is that humans aren't able to grasp the whole of the divine nature very well and tends to polarise into God the harsh, unpleasable ogre and God the lovey dovey who wants all to be just nice to each other. Both, of course, are gross caricatures and I believe the real God combines elements of both, being both loving but also good (not wanting people to do harm to themselves and others). On side of the coin 'God is love', the other 'Thou shalt not'. Depending on which type you have been exposed to the most obviously D ) will go along way to forming your idea of God. I picked up strongly on God as policeman aching to jail you but have glimpsed enough of God is love to know that the former image is faulty. Various writers have at various times focused on one or the other. I believe the Bible is a collection of writings showing what people thought about God and a fuller picture emerges as time goes by and as a Xtian the best picture is provided by the accounts about Jesus.

The Trinity was one of the “mysteries” that I learned when I was confirmed into the Episcopal (Brits read “Anglican”) church. It didn’t make any sense to me then and still doesn’t now. It almost seems like a ruse so that God can have different traits to suit the situation.

Really? Would you tell me more.

This is a can of worms that deserves its own thread, though I warn you that the screams for “evidence” will resound if such a thing is started. I’m going to pass on it for now with scarcely a smirk.

Don't worry, I have no desire to discuss mythological Jesuses!

I try to respond in kind to the tone of the person I am conversing with. I swap insults with Huntster because we have both agreed that we are invulnerable to insults, and even like them, if they are creative.

Excellent, it's good to get an idea where someone is coming from.

And I know that you have and will come in for some abuse if you stay here. All I can say is that I regret it. Once, for about three months, I posted on a Fundamental Christian board. I was totally honest about my beliefs and I was delivered such a rasher of merde as can hardly be described in polite terms. I coined the term, “being prayed at” for the times when ill-disguised hostility was shrouded in what the writer obviously thought was Godly love, for my own good, of course.

I avoid fundy boards too and I would probably be banned too. Your experience rings true, unfortunately. I am a member of a non-fundy ecumenical board which is also a home to Atheists, Agnostics, Pagans. It has been very instructive learning about other types of Xtianity, especially Orthodox which is a very interesting kettle of fish (to Protestants, let alone Atheists).

But if one posts on any board where theirs is a minority opinion, one has to expect exactly that. I survived three months until I was banned for “mocking god”. One big difference between your situation here and mine there is that nobody gets banned for their beliefs here.

I'm not keen on the rudeness here, but, there you go.

However, I might tell an anecdote about how I used to “rationally” justify my belief in astrology. Being trained in biology, I thought that the gravitational pull of the planets and stars might influence which sperm fertilized the egg, or even how chromosomes divided during meiosis. As I learned more, I found that my theory was full of holes, the largest being that due to the inverse square law, your bed has a greater gravitational effect on you than the planets and stars. But once you start with a conclusion like “astrology works”, then all sorts of plausible things pop to mind to support that conclusion.

Indeed, my understanding has mirrored yours on this topic.

I like to think so too, and I hope you will remain here. I know it won’t be easy for you, because you will be insulted. It’s in the stars.

 

[Tricky]

I'll just touch on obvious, QM and Relativity. 102 years ago it was obvious to rational scientific men that time was a constant (it is counter intuitive I would say) and the ideas of QM would be dismissed. Now they have become obvious. I find that terms like 'obvious' can be defined a bit arbitrarily.

I agree, and many here have pointed this out. It is even a fallacy to rely on "common sense", because "common sense" is so often mistaken.

Notions like fairness have been very important to me because I wouldn't want to worship a God who is unfair. If I may I'd like to disagree with your statement that many if not most of the Xtian concepts of God depict him as someone who is unfair, petty and tyrannical. I don't doubt that you have been exposed to these, especially in the Xtianity of kathy, but the loving side of God's nature is the other side of the coin.

I understand what you are saying, and it is very similar to what Kahlil Gibran said in "The Prophet". I would still argue that any concept of God which includes such a thing as "hell" indicates an unforgiving God. There is no crime which deserves eternal punishment, IMO. After all, punishment should be to teach people, not just to be vindictive. Most Christians I know believe in some kind of hell. Do you? If so, how would you describe it?

The way it appears to me is that humans aren't able to grasp the whole of the divine nature very well and tends to polarise into God the harsh, unpleasable ogre and God the lovey dovey who wants all to be just nice to each other. Both, of course, are gross caricatures and I believe the real God combines elements of both, being both loving but also good (not wanting people to do harm to themselves and others). On side of the coin 'God is love', the other 'Thou shalt not'. Depending on which type you have been exposed to the most obviously D ) will go along way to forming your idea of God.

But even gross caricatures must contain some element of the true nature of God. If even one of the atrocities that God is said in the OT to have done is remotely accurate, then this is not a God I could worship. You wouldn't excuse a king for murdering his people, just because he had a sweet side too.

I picked up strongly on God as policeman aching to jail you but have glimpsed enough of God is love to know that the former image is faulty. Various writers have at various times focused on one or the other. I believe the Bible is a collection of writings showing what people thought about God and a fuller picture emerges as time goes by and as a Xtian the best picture is provided by the accounts about Jesus.

(Emphasis mine). This is how I have always regarded the Bible. It is a collection of writings, not a cohesive work. Some of the stories have good messages. Some are like gothic horror stories. I don't so much believe it is a fuller picture of God so much as an anthology of the ways God has been perceived throughout the ages. Of course, as an atheist, I don't believe it is divinely inspired either.

Really? Would you tell me more.

I was fifteen I think and had achieved what the Episcopal Church called "the age of reason". At this time we went to after-school sessions with the minister and some of the church elders. The idea was to explain the "mysteries of the church" and help us grow past the cartoonish version of Christianity that we had learned in Sunday School. I had been an alter boy (acolyte) and member of the youth choir for some years and church was a very big part of my life, so I was eager to go to "confirmation" as it was called.

Well, it was dead boring most of the time and we weren't exactly discouraged from asking questions, but more like they never asked if there were any questions. Didn't matter to me. My hand was up constantly to try to make sense out of what they were saying. The trinity was especially "tricky" as it seemed to mean a different thing every time it was mentioned. I mean, were they separate entities? Did they each have certain responsibilities? What was the difference in their natures? I couldn't get any answers to these sorts of things that didn't just sound like gobbledygook. Here's an example:

The Trinity tells us that there are three Persons in one Divine Nature. The names Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are names of persons. God can serve as either a name for the Father or a name for the Divine Nature. Before delving into the relative meaning of Persons and Natures it will be useful to make it clear that these terms refer to distinctly different things.

Then they never define clearly what those distinctly different things are.

Anyway, this was when I had my first twinges of becoming an atheist. It was a horrible emotional trauma that I could not force myself to believe these things, but every time I tried to tell my brain, "just stop trying to figure it out and have faith", my brain would refuse.

If you can explain it so that it makes sense, you would be the first. Remember that analogies are always limited.

Don't worry, I have no desire to discuss mythological Jesuses!

Um... I'm not certain there are any other kind.

I avoid fundy boards too and I would probably be banned too. Your experience rings true, unfortunately. I am a member of a non-fundy ecumenical board which is also a home to Atheists, Agnostics, Pagans. It has been very instructive learning about other types of Xtianity, especially Orthodox which is a very interesting kettle of fish (to Protestants, let alone Atheists).

Well, like missionaries, if you want people to understand atheists, you go where the misunderstandings and ignorance are the greatest. But if you want to extend an invitation to join your ecumenical board by private message, I won't say no.

I'm not keen on the rudeness here, but, there you go.

It's a double-edged sword (or two sides of the same coin, to use your analogy.) Creative insulting can be great fun. We even have a Flame War section in this forum for just such things. Of course, it is the most fun when you respect the person you're "flaming". And rudeness leads to creativity too. One of the funniest things I can ever remember reading is Ambrose Bierce's Devil's Dictionary. It insults almost everybody. Cleverly.

Simple name-calling is really annoying though, especially "straw men", where someone trys to tell me what I believe, like insisting that I "hate God".

 

[Mr Clingford]

Replies are getting a bit longer so I thought I'd chop mine in two.

I understand what you are saying, and it is very similar to what Kahlil Gibran said in "The Prophet". I would still argue that any concept of God which includes such a thing as "hell" indicates an unforgiving God. There is no crime which deserves eternal punishment, IMO. After all, punishment should be to teach people, not just to be vindictive. Most Christians I know believe in some kind of hell. Do you? If so, how would you describe it?

I haven't come across "The Prophet" and wiki doesn't tell me much at all about it. Of course there are differing Xtian takes on the concept a number of which address this issue of eternal punishment and deal with it. Some people believe that those who don't want to be with God are annihilated they don't exist after death sort of thing. The Orthodox have an interesting angle with no ordinary hell or heaven but everyone in the presence of God and for some it is heaven and for others it is hellish. I want to give people the right to deny God which is why I am nearly a universalist, but not quite. Perhaps someone is so caught up in their hatred and turned inwards that they refuse all offers of true unalderatedlove. Perhaps. As to what the deniers experience not a clue. If anyone has a change of heart and 'sees the light' then I think God would welcome them like the father in The Prodigal Son story (a formative tale for me). I believe in repentence after death.

But even gross caricatures must contain some element of the true nature of God. If even one of the atrocities that God is said in the OT to have done is remotely accurate, then this is not a God I could worship. You wouldn't excuse a king for murdering his people, just because he had a sweet side too.

I am in complete agreement.

... This is how I have always regarded the Bible. It is a collection of writings, not a cohesive work. Some of the stories have good messages. Some are like gothic horror stories. I don't so much believe it is a fuller picture of God so much as an anthology of the ways God has been perceived throughout the ages. Of course, as an atheist, I don't believe it is divinely inspired either.

As the Bible was written in different cultures, languages, times and places it is polyvocal. I find it interesting to trace the developing ideas of God through the Bible, eg, God moving from being a tribal God to being the God of all. Some stories certainly are horrendous, indeed, disgusting. It was a rough time back then and people have always believed God was on their side and in favour of what they do. I would say that people in the OT had grasped some notion of God, but it is fixed in the culture of the time which had many ideas we consider wrong.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Perhaps someone is so caught up in their hatred and turned inwards that they refuse all offers of true unalderatedlove.

For many, if not most, atheists hatred and being turned inward are simply not a factor. I know a number myself who are loving people very much concerned with others.

 

[Tricky]

For many, if not most, atheists hatred and being turned inward are simply not a factor. I know a number myself who are loving people very much concerned with others.

That is exactly my experience too. If anyone wants a great first-hand account of this, I recomment they look at the history of Roadtoad here. He has had a very hard time with hateful Christians, but his love and devotion to a brave dying child had most of us in tears.

Slingblade's stories are gut-wrenching too, and she is an extremely sweet and giving person.

 

[Foster Zygote]

That is exactly my experience too. If anyone wants a great first-hand account of this, I recomment they look at the history of Roadtoad here. He has had a very hard time with hateful Christians, but his love and devotion to a brave dying child had most of us in tears.

Slingblade's stories are gut-wrenching too, and she is an extremely sweet and giving.

I'm sick and tired of what I call the 'Touched By An Angel fallacy'. The assumption that an atheist must be a bitter, deeply wounded person who is somehow angry with God for not being there when he/she needed him.

 

[joobz]

I'm sick and tired of what I call the 'Touched By An Angel fallacy'. The assumption that an atheist must be a bitter, deeply wounded person who is somehow angry with God for not being there when he/she needed him.

why are you so angry about it? Was god not there for you at some point when you needed him?

 

[Tricky]

Replies are getting a bit longer so I thought I'd chop mine in two.

These things do tend to gain mass over time.

I haven't come across "The Prophet" and wiki doesn't tell me much at all about it.

It was very popular in the 60's. It was a book of quasi-religious philosophy broken into short essays. My mom loved it and read to us out of it frequently. In retrospect, I realize it was not particularly deep, but just the sort of thing to get a young mind to thinking.

Of course there are differing Xtian takes on the concept a number of which address this issue of eternal punishment and deal with it. Some people believe that those who don't want to be with God are annihilated they don't exist after death sort of thing. The Orthodox have an interesting angle with no ordinary hell or heaven but everyone in the presence of God and for some it is heaven and for others it is hellish.

Many sects allude to levels of hell and of heaven. The annihilation business is one I have heard of too, but it seems to me that few would choose that, at least, not at first. The survival urge is so strong in us.

I want to give people the right to deny God which is why I am nearly a universalist, but not quite. Perhaps someone is so caught up in their hatred and turned inwards that they refuse all offers of true unalderatedlove. Perhaps. As to what the deniers experience not a clue. If anyone has a change of heart and 'sees the light' then I think God would welcome them like the father in The Prodigal Son story (a formative tale for me). I believe in repentence after death.

Repentence after death? I must say, that is an unusual attitude, one that I have rarely seen in my experience with Christians, but one of which I highly approve. But again, who wouldn't repent after death when they saw that the afterlife really did exist and that they were in a bad neighborhood? That sounds eminently fair, but still there are lots of problems to work out, like, "why be good in this life if you can repent afterwards?" Also, the concept of time in an afterlife is iffy. Do they have to stay in a lower level until they learn to love? Do they have classes? Can you speed up the process?

All in all it sounds like an interesting thought experiment into how a "fair" afterlife could be structured. But still, it is, in my opinion, no reason to believe that an afterlife exists. It is more like creating a plausible scenario for a science fiction novel.

As the Bible was written in different cultures, languages, times and places it is polyvocal. I find it interesting to trace the developing ideas of God through the Bible, eg, God moving from being a tribal God to being the God of all. Some stories certainly are horrendous, indeed, disgusting.

I mostly see a big dichotomy between the OT and the NT in the way God is described. Sure, there are many different voices. (Polyvocal. I like that word.) Some are little more than poems of praise, like the Psalms, but don't do much to bring the image of God into sharper focus. Some describe a rulegiver with all the love and personality of a chartered accountant. But seeing as we mostly agree on this, I won't spend too much time trying to convince you.

It was a rough time back then and people have always believed God was on their side and in favour of what they do. I would say that people in the OT had grasped some notion of God, but it is fixed in the culture of the time which had many ideas we consider wrong.

LOL. The idea of God as one who is always on our side and in favour of what we do is very much with us today. The infamous quote by Ann Coulter about how we should "kill their leaders and convert (the rest of them) to Christianity" illustrates this.

For all our human comforts, the world is still a rough place.

 

[RandFan]

I'm sick and tired of what I call the 'Touched By An Angel fallacy'. The assumption that an atheist must be a bitter, deeply wounded person who is somehow angry with God for not being there when he/she needed him.

Well said. I honestly bought this BS when I was a believer.

 

[Mr Clingford]

Originally Posted by Mr Clingford
Perhaps someone is so caught up in their hatred and turned inwards that they refuse all offers of true unalderatedlove.

For many, if not most, atheists hatred and being turned inward are simply not a factor. I know a number myself who are loving people very much concerned with others.

HEY LOOK. WHERE DID I SAY ATHEISTS? I DIDN'T. I DELIBERATELY SAID "SOMEONE" TO BE GENUINELY COMPLETELY UNSPECIFIC. AAAAAGH. THAT WAS THE POINT!

 

[Mr Clingford]

These things do tend to gain mass over time.

It was very popular in the 60's. It was a book of quasi-religious philosophy broken into short essays. My mom loved it and read to us out of it frequently. In retrospect, I realize it was not particularly deep, but just the sort of thing to get a young mind to thinking.

Are you telling me I have missed my generation and my calling? I could be having sex with my followers out in the Californian desert, man. Damn. I watched Easy Rider for the first time a few weeks ago too.

Many sects allude to levels of hell and of heaven. The annihilation business is one I have heard of too, but it seems to me that few would choose that, at least, not at first. The survival urge is so strong in us.

True, but I don't know that the Orthodox are a sect, if that's what you mean - they're knid of, well, orthodox. And actually that idea has no levels at all, no heaven or hell, just everyone being in the presence of God.

Repentence after death? I must say, that is an unusual attitude, one that I have rarely seen in my experience with Christians, but one of which I highly approve.

You've hung out with the wrong Xtians, then! When I was growing up I remember people saying that you're bed was made in this life but that hasn't struck me as fair for a long time and I know quite a lot of Xtians who say the same as me.

But again, who wouldn't repent after death when they saw that the afterlife really did exist and that they were in a bad neighborhood?

I don't see 'repenting after death' as a discovering that one has got a fact wrong (God exists etc) but being caught up as one comes face to face with pure wonderful love; perhaps it is not so much that God judges us but our reaction to the full presence of the most wonderful thing possible that determines how we are. There are Xtian notions that someone might still reject God but who knows how after a time everyone's heart might be softened and warmed.

That sounds eminently fair, but still there are lots of problems to work out, like, "why be good in this life if you can repent afterwards?"

Xtians can go on about becoming a Xtian is the Golden Ticket to get you into heaven but I think that that is not what God is about. What one's character is like and how one treat's one's fellow man (one's neighbour), tending the sick, aiding the poor, fighting injustice is what it is about (remember the OT prophets had a real downer on people who mouthed words, carried out sacrifices, but who were hypocrits - God really isn't fond of hypocrisy). Also, relating to God can be character-developing and a wonderful amazing experience too (especially if the experiences are not all generated solely by the brain alone!). A life lived in a loving way is honouring to God. I think that relationships/reaching out to others give the ultimate pleasure/enjoyment/fun/fulfillment in life and that is why one can lead a very hedonistic life and have a whale of a time but it is possible to get more out of life.

Also, the concept of time in an afterlife is iffy. Do they have to stay in a lower level until they learn to love? Do they have classes? Can you speed up the process?

All in all it sounds like an interesting thought experiment into how a "fair" afterlife could be structured. But still, it is, in my opinion, no reason to believe that an afterlife exists. It is more like creating a plausible scenario for a science fiction novel.

I have not done masses of thinking about what the afterlife is like because I find it difficult to get my mind round it. Good qs. I think the idea of purgatory addresses something of this but I don't know. And, sure, it is no reason to believe that there is an afterlife if you don't think there is one in the first place, but it makes the idea that God is loving and just a bit more plausible!

I mostly see a big dichotomy between the OT and the NT in the way God is described. Sure, there are many different voices. (Polyvocal. I like that word.) Some are little more than poems of praise, like the Psalms, but don't do much to bring the image of God into sharper focus. Some describe a rulegiver with all the love and personality of a chartered accountant. But seeing as we mostly agree on this, I won't spend too much time trying to convince you.

He he. I have studied Philosophy and Theology and English and I find that the more time I spend here the more my mind works in an academic way and I like using and playing with words, and if they happen to be more accurate words pertinent to the discussion then I will pop them in, especially if people ridicule simplified Xtian ideas and then think they have just dismissed Xtianity I will chuck in these more complex notions and terms. Hey, I'm human.

LOL. The idea of God as one who is always on our side and in favour of what we do is very much with us today. The infamous quote by Ann Coulter about how we should "kill their leaders and convert (the rest of them) to Christianity" illustrates this.

Unfortunately it is an all too common failing in us, to accept that we might be wrong.

For all our human comforts, the world is still a rough place.

Sadly yes, as the last 100 or so years have amply demonstrated.

 

[The Atheist]

Perhaps you would like to comment on this phenomenon which I posted earlier?
"I was in a prayer group of about 5 or 6 people and people prayed out loud on various subjects. At that time I was more able, I would have to provisionally say, to 'hear' some words that God wanted to be prayed (Yeah, I know it sounds very woo, but bear with me). When this bloke started praying out loud the exact same words came into my mind at the moment he said them; it was as though I thought the words and he spoke them. I think he spoke only a few sentences at the most but I found it quite striking. I have not experienced anything like it before or since. This is why I wonder a bit about science not having discovered stuff because maybe there is no God and our minds were somehow in sync?

I have considered various questions about this and answered them as best I can. No, I didn't hear the words and then think I thought them at the same time. Yes, it is possible that it is just an amazing coincidence that we were thinking exactly the same sentences at exactly the same time in exactly the same order. I have found this to be an interesting phenomenon because it not just one that occured solely in my own mind because it involved the other bloke too. In addition I didn't know the bloke so I had no knowledge of his previous thoughts and speech patterns."

I notice that this seems to be high on your reasons for your faith. It smacks to me a little of the guy who goes to investigate strange happenings at his friend's house. The guy's a total unbeliever [so he says] then, as soon as weird stuff starts happening, he stands up and says, "You've got a poltergeist!".

One thing I have found in life - VERY weird ***** happens.

I could suggest a couple of possibilities for your scenario.

Pure coincidence. In a field where the options are limited - praise god, love Jesus, etc., ad nauseum, it isn't impossible that with a billion adherents, a couple of christians could think of the exact same prayer at the exact same moment.

Forgot it. You'd both heard it when much younger, forgotten it and then remembered it as though you'd dreamt it up. I know from English papers that young males are well capable of this - I've seen unintentional plagiarism many times, mostly by young men, oddly.

Drugs/tiredness/altered mind state. Unintentionally-taken drugs, altered consciousness due to viral infection, lots of things could have caused you to be thinking and doing two different things.

Obviously, this far after the event, you'd never know with complete certainty that none of those things above happened, but you'd have to admit they are possible. Not only possible, but a lot more probable than god putting the same idolatrous prayer into your young minds at the same instant. Let's face it, he could possibly have more important things on the go...

Have you looked at this thread? It's all about a very weird phenomenon which would be classified by many people as supernatural, paranormal or alien. It wasn't.

Here you go - a story which I've never repeated in public. You seem like a good bloke and I think it's quite relevant. (Can you believe how frigging nice everyone's being????)

My dad was my hero as I grew up. He was a genuine, multiple-decoration war hero from WWII and was truly tall, dark and handsome. (And that's not biased opinion - that's having seen the women drool when he stopped to talk to them, even though they might be 30 years younger.) He could sing like Nat King Cole - his musical hero; he was a former boxing champ (welterweight) and he was the funniest bloke I ever met in my life. He could be telling the most serious story ever, but he'd find some way to turn it into pure gold.

I worshipped the man and always told myself that if I could be half the man he was, I'd be happy with my life.

He died of cancer of the throat in 1982. For the last six months of his life, I shifted home with my mum so I could help look after him - hospices are for the unloved, she reckoned! For the last fortnight of his life, I lifted my dad out of his bed - he weighed nothing - to and from the toilet and I carried his dead body to the hearse after he died.

It became obvious one night that he was near death - he'd lapsed into full coma and was merely laying there breathing, unconscious. All that night and the next day my mother and I sat in vigil next to his bed. By 10 pm the following night, a couple of my brothers had arrived as well, so I decided to get some sleep in a different room.

During that sleep - which lasted about 40 minutes - I had a dream. In the dream, I was sitting and talking to my dad, playing cribbage as we had done so many thousands of times. He suddenly stood up and said to me, "Alan, I have to go now" and walked out of the front door. It was the right front door, too, a 3-pane glass door - the one at my mother's house. Whether or not a background in lucid dreaming helped, I don't know, but I knew it was a dream and I woke myself up.

Not one of the other people in the house had made any noise or moved - I checked. I sat down next to the bed and picked up my dad's right hand to feel his pulse, just in time to feel his last three heartbeats before it stopped.

Had I been a less rational person (and extreme atheist), I am absolutely convinced that I would have seen the hand of god at work. Other, more pious members of my family certainly do! The way he left suddenly, the way I could see him walking down the path through the glass door, while knowing he was at death's door in the other room - it was mind-####ing. I was also dog-tired, which made it even harder to deal with.

What happened? I have no idea. Almost certainly simple coincidence. I knew he was dying and I knew he was going to die soon, so the dream was nothing special. The only part was the timing; such amazingly immaculate timing, as though a greater power - or my dad - wanted me to be there for the final seconds. Pure coincidence. Lucky, joyous, coincidence that I held my dad's hand as he died, but coincidence nonetheless.

Occam's Razor, Sherlock Holmes' adage about possibilities, no matter how bizarre, whatever you like, the key is to look for supernatural explanations last, not first.

Jesus, that's a long post!

 

[Mr Clingford]

To The Atheist

Thank you for sharing. I'm glad you could be there right at the end with your father, and whatever happened, it was a powerful moment. Dreaming about your father passing through a door is not unusual but the timing time of it was wonderful.

I suppose I mentioned the prayer thing because at least it didn't just happen in my own mind (in the sense of 'feeling God's presence', for instance). Now, I agree it could just be coincidence, as I have said in previous posts, but I'm not ready to sign up to that understanding just yet. Also I have only just started reading about consciousness and spiritual/religious etc experience, although I do know about sleep paralysis. I am interested, for instance, to learn more about the different circumstances in which people 'feel' presences (I don't think I have ever experienced alien abduction, I mean, sleep paralysis, I would like to see what it feels like, though and compare), especially as when I 'felt God's presence' it was a continuous thing throughout the day with different activities, places, people etc.

I was sober, not drugged, not ill, not tired, not emotional, not starving or thirsty and hadn't been in some trance-like state. It was an extempore prayer on a specific issue and wasn't a formula. It may be coincidence, maybe no God. I want to do much more reading and then some experimenting - should be fun (as long as the police don't take my stash away).

I decided not to quote your post and reply to it as the internet couldn't have coped with all our words.

 

[Foster Zygote]

why are you so angry about it? Was god not there for you at some point when you needed him?

Actually, I was bitten by a god as a child.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Originally Posted by Mr Clingford
Perhaps someone is so caught up in their hatred and turned inwards that they refuse all offers of true unalderatedlove.



HEY LOOK. WHERE DID I SAY ATHEISTS? I DIDN'T. I DELIBERATELY SAID "SOMEONE" TO BE GENUINELY COMPLETELY UNSPECIFIC. AAAAAGH. THAT WAS THE POINT!

True, but I was only speaking as an atheist. I really can't speak for theists who are angry with god. My remark to Tricky was not really about you, but rather about a general attitude that I'm sure he's encountered as well.

Yes, perhaps some are so caught up in their hatred and so turned in upon themselves that they refuse all offers of true, unadulterated love, even from other people. But are you considering that some might reject religion for reasons that have nothing to do with negative emotions, but rather for rational reasons? Have you considered that someone can reject religion and still be a kind, generous, loving person? That's the point I intended.

 

[Mr Clingford]

True, but I was only speaking as an atheist. I really can't speak for theists who are angry with god. My remark to Tricky was not really about you, but rather about a general attitude that I'm sure he's encountered as well.

Ok, then.

Yes, perhaps some are so caught up in their hatred and so turned in upon themselves that they refuse all offers of true, unadulterated love, even from other people. But are you considering that some might reject religion for reasons that have nothing to do with negative emotions, but rather for rational reasons?

You have moved from 'unadulterated love' to 'religion', from encountering God face to face to our attempts to understand and meet God. If after death you then encounter the loving God it will be a bit difficult to deny he exists! On the matter of religion - of course someone can reject what they understand by it for perfectly valid rational reasons.

Have you considered that someone can reject religion and still be a kind, generous, loving person? That's the point I intended.

Ok, but again, of course - it seems that there might be a number here (as far as one can tell via a messageboard!). The rest of you, though, eat your young, sacrifice virgins, worship Randi and delight in making the Baby Jesus cry.

 

[joobz]

Actually, I was bitten by a god as a child.

That should be your tag line
Foster Zygote-bitten by a god.

 

[The Atheist]

(as long as the police don't take my stash away).

I was having a rant on a site a couple of weeks ago and this guy was telling me how salvia is helping him sort out religion - apparently he's having these "revealing" moments during chewing salvia. I almost didn't have the heart to point out that it's a hallucinogen and that's what it's supposed to do - but I did anyway. He was suitably chastened. I often wonder whether the big J and his pals used to do a lot of really good drugs.

 

[Mr Clingford]

I looked up salvia and wiki came up with sage! But that's a herb for cooking - am I missing something, or should I have been looking in the kitchen all along for the meaning of life (other than food and alcohol)?

I remember someone supposedly discussed the gospels in terms of mushrooms (magic or not I can't remember).

 

[The Atheist]

The rest of you, though, eat your young, sacrifice virgins, worship Randi and delight in making the Baby Jesus cry.

Plus, conducting black masses, worshipping our Lord, Lucifer, murdering innocent christians and plotting to overthrow the world government to make joining a religion punishable by death.

EAC is alive and well.