ATF as corrupt with tobacco as with firearms

[ravdin]

From the folks you brought you Fast and Furious:

The Justice Department's internal watchdog says the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives mounted dozens of undercover investigations into illicit cigarette sales without proper approval. It says the agency misused some of $162 million in profits from the stings - including overpaying an informant by millions of dollars - and lost track of at least 420 million cigarettes.

"Lost track" of 420 million cigarettes is an interesting way of putting it. I did a quick back of the envelope calculation and found that all of those cigarettes should fit neatly into a cube that is 43 feet on each side. For our non-American friends, that's about the height of a four story house. Maybe 420 million cigarettes fell under the couch at ATF headquarters? It's always in the last place you look.

Linky.

 

[triforcharity]

How do you misplace the equivalent of a HOUSE!?!?!?!?!?!?! And people want to trust the government with out heath care and make more laws and track millions of guns? But they can't keep track of something as benign as cigarettes?

 

[arthwollipot]

Cigarettes are benign now?

 

[Ranb]

But they can't keep track of something as benign as cigarettes?

Not benign. http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/fast_facts/#toll

Ranb

 

[ravdin]

Cigarettes are benign now?

Benign perhaps compared to knowingly allowing automatic weapons to fall into the hands of Mexican narco-criminal gangs.

 

[Robrob]

How do you misplace the equivalent of a HOUSE!?!?!?!?!?!?! And people want to trust the government with out heath care and make more laws and track millions of guns? But they can't keep track of something as benign as cigarettes?

How many smuggled semi-trucks of cigarettes would that be and over how long?

 

[Aepervius]

How do you misplace the equivalent of a HOUSE!?!?!?!?!?!?! And people want to trust the government with out heath care and make more laws and track millions of guns? But they can't keep track of something as benign as cigarettes?

I would have to read the report, by my wild guess is that those where not lost at the same time, but the result of discrepancy between what was collected, what was sent to destruction and written off as really destroyed by the incinerator. I would not be surprised that it is simply an accounting error and nothing nefarious.

 

[shadron]

How many smuggled semi-trucks of cigarettes would that be and over how long?

That's 2944 cu yd of cigarettes (assuming Ravdin's numbers), a full length semi-trailer hold 125 cu yd. It's 23 and a half trailer loads.

 

[marplots]

I was surprised to read how much money is estimated to be involved in illegal cigarette smuggling. Weren't the marijuana advocates telling me that decriminalization with regulation and taxing was going to remove the criminal element and the money?

 

[Tolls]

That's 2944 cu yd of cigarettes (assuming Ravdin's numbers), a full length semi-trailer hold 125 cu yd. It's 23 and a half trailer loads.

Between 2006 and 2011, accoridng to the article.

Slightly under 5 a year.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I would have to read the report, by my wild guess is that those where not lost at the same time, but the result of discrepancy between what was collected, what was sent to destruction and written off as really destroyed by the incinerator. I would not be surprised that it is simply an accounting error and nothing nefarious.

That's how I read it as well but it won't stop the usual suspects from claiming it shows that the ATF and by extension the Govt are all criminals.

 

[WildCat]

Between 2006 and 2011, accoridng to the article.

Slightly under 5 a year.

Fat Tony: Bart, is it wrong to steal a loaf of bread to feed your starving family?

Bart: No.

Fat Tony: Well, suppose you got a large starving family. Is it wrong to steal a truckload of bread to feed them?

Bart: Uh uh.

Fat Tony: And, what if your family don't like bread? They like... cigarettes?

Bart: I guess that's okay.

 

[WildCat]

I was surprised to read how much money is estimated to be involved in illegal cigarette smuggling. Weren't the marijuana advocates telling me that decriminalization with regulation and taxing was going to remove the criminal element and the money?

Don't know about other people, but I've always said if the tax is too high it will create black market opportunities.

We're already seeing this in Chicago/Cook County, where something like 20% of the cigarettes sold in stores don't have the proper tax stamps, street gangs are selling bootleg cigarettes on the street, and tobacco tax revenue has gone way down as the taxes have gone up.

 

[ravdin]

That's how I read it as well but it won't stop the usual suspects from claiming it shows that the ATF and by extension the Govt are all criminals.

I suppose you could argue instead that the ATF and by extension the entire government is incompetent.

 

[Unabogie]

I suppose you could argue instead that the ATF and by extension the entire government is incompetent.

Or your could argue that overworked and understaffed people put less importance on record keeping than they ought to have, but that no malfeasance actually occurred. Unless your contention is that we need a bigger government to hire people who just do record keeping to free up the field agents?

 

[ravdin]

Or your could argue that overworked and understaffed people put less importance on record keeping than they ought to have, but that no malfeasance actually occurred. Unless your contention is that we need a bigger government to hire people who just do record keeping to free up the field agents?

I would argue that a bigger government would lead to more incidents of "misuse" of hundreds of millions of dollars to pay informants and "losing track" of highly regulated merchandise that is valuable in the black market.

Wait, what are we getting again for the $1.1B per year we spend on the ATF and all of its ****ups?

 

[Unabogie]

I would argue that a bigger government would lead to more incidents of "misuse" of hundreds of millions of dollars to pay informants and "losing track" of highly regulated merchandise that is valuable in the black market.

Wait, what are we getting again for the $1.1B per year we spend on the ATF and all of its ****ups?

Are you saying we should't task the government with stopping the illegal flow of weapons in and out of the country?

 

[Craig B]

... a cube that is 43 feet on each side. For our non-American friends, that's about the height of a four story house.

As a non-American, may I thank you for that enlightenment. One day, we too may have four storey houses.

 

[Mike!]

Don't know about other people, but I've always said if the tax is too high it will create black market opportunities.

We're already seeing this in Chicago/Cook County, where something like 20% of the cigarettes sold in stores don't have the proper tax stamps, street gangs are selling bootleg cigarettes on the street, and tobacco tax revenue has gone way down as the taxes have gone up.

It's more of a charcoal gray market. Taxes ARE being paid on the cigarettes, it's just not to the local government agency that wants/gets it in the end, it's where ever they were sold originally. I live in Illinois, right on the Mississippi river. If I drive due west, less than a mile into Missouri, I can buy gas for fifteen to twenty cents a gallon less, and save I don't know what on cigarettes (Because I don't smoke and don't care to check), but it must be a lot because they sell the living heck out of cigarettes by the carton, regularly. When I was going to school in the late 70's and early 80's, I worked at a couple of those just over the state line gas stations. The vast majority of our customers were from Illinois, and they bought almost as much in cigarettes as gas. I'm sure if there was a practical way to move vast quantities of motor fuel with some level of safety, as there is to move cigarettes, there'd be a charcoal gray market for it as well.

 

[Ranb]

Or your could argue that overworked and understaffed people put less importance on record keeping than they ought to have, but that no malfeasance actually occurred.

Sounds like what happend at Bullseye in Tacoma when the DC sniper got his hands on the AR-15 they used. No one had any kind of laa-dee-daa attitude about it though.

Unless your contention is that we need a bigger government to hire people who just do record keeping to free up the field agents?

The ATF needs more paper pushers. When it takes six plus months for approval of a tax stamp application this is a sign they need more help.

Ranb