At what point does Skepticism become cruel?

Luke T. said:
To expand a little on my previous post, some people might not want to be in control of their own destiny. Or they may have surrendered control at some point in the past and are psychologically dependent on a powerful personality to run their lives for them, having come to the belief (encouraged by that powerful personality) that they are too weak to run their own lives.
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All the more reason to empower them with knowledge.
 
Luke T. said:
To expand a little on my previous post, some people might not want to be in control of their own destiny. Or they may have surrendered control at some point in the past and are psychologically dependent on a powerful personality to run their lives for them, having come to the belief (encouraged by that powerful personality) that they are too weak to run their own lives.
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Interesting and accurate, in my opinion.

Reminds me of one of my favorite words for humans in general, which is "Sheeplings".

A mixture of sheep, happy pack animals, and lemmings... using the general lemming myth of marching to their self destruction.

People who follow anything for any reason, regardless of the effect it may have upon them. Subtitled "Most people NEED to be part of a group."

I should copyright that one... or at least make a t-shirt :D

To those who will bust me for that one, it's just MY opinion...

Regards,

Axe
 
Axenos said:
Interesting and accurate, in my opinion.

Reminds me of one of my favorite words for humans in general, which is "Sheeplings".

A mixture of sheep, happy pack animals, and lemmings... using the general lemming myth of marching to their self destruction.

People who follow anything for any reason, regardless of the effect it may have upon them. Subtitled "Most people NEED to be part of a group."

I should copyright that one... or at least make a t-shirt :D

To those who will bust me for that one, it's just MY opinion...

Regards,

Axe
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Well, as long as we're touching on the cynical, is it fair to mention that skeptics are by no means exempt from your observation. Actually wait, no, it's not fair, it's obvious.
 
I don't see what skeptics have to offer as "cold harsh reality" or "nothingness".

If I believed in religion, a lot of them anyway, I would have to believe that my father was burning in hell and suffering for all of eternity because he was not a believer in any religions or gods. That's comforting??!!

Instead, since I do NOT believe in any religions or gods myself, I can reflect on my father's years as a scientist and how he contributed a great deal to the body of human knowledge. He donated his body to science so that his disease (cancer) could be studied and perhaps defeated someday. There is no more suffering for him. His legacy will go on for long after I am gone, and THAT I find comforting.

And believing a bunch of errant nonsense is not really a freeing, comforting thing either. Most people limit their lives and experiences because they believe it's a bad day for their biorythms, it's against their religion, their horoscope told them not to, or their psychic advised against it. A friend of mine spent weeks alone in her house wearing a hepa mask, because she believed it would cure her of all the things she was allergic to, and the list was very long. And how did she know she was allergic to all these things? She held the substance in her hand, and if her hand moved down to the ground it meant she was allergic. ! :boggled: (I was tempted to ask if she was allergic to bowling balls, but I restrained myself.)

The skeptic does not get concerned about biorythms and such, but can get out there and enjoy life every single day. Instead of looking at the wonderful complexity found in the eye, giving up and saying "god did it", they can study and learn and find out how truly marvelous life and the world can be. They can learn something new every single day of their lives, because they don't need to worry that education might challenge their belief. Now, that is freedom.

And simply because the skeptic is not constrained by a belief in eternal punishment, that does not mean they will be socially destructive. As many have pointed out here, it is very easy to tell if someone wishes to hear about skepticism, or if they do not. And the truth is, it is very hard to shift someone from their belief. In fact, they have to do it themselves.

So I think the imaginary person in the OP will continue to cling to their belief because they wish to. As far as whether I personally would say anything to such a person would depend on circumstances; but I believe that the knowledge would set that person free for a richer life, not diminish them somehow.
 
CFLarsen said:
All the more reason to empower them with knowledge.
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Absolutely. But learning takes an effort. It's easier to believe Zeus throws lightning bolts than it is to learn about physics.

And there is a human need to have a reason for Zeus zapping your ass.
 
Amapola said:
If I believed in religion, a lot of them anyway, I would have to believe that my father was burning in hell and suffering for all of eternity because he was not a believer in any religions or gods.
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No, you wouldn't. You would find a way to believe that your deity was intelligent enough to recognize your father's many good qualities, and compassionate enough to grant him dispensation. At the very least, you would believe (as the Catholics do) that God had made provision for your father to eventually earn his way into heaven after the fact.

You never heard of arguments based on Special Pleading?
 
kitakaze said:
Well, as long as we're touching on the cynical, is it fair to mention that skeptics are by no means exempt from your observation. Actually wait, no, it's not fair, it's obvious.
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Agreed. I suppose I am a cynic by definition...

When it's all said and done, what are we really except pack animal mammals with deoderant and an inherent ability to hurt and/or destroy ourselves?

Regards,

Axenos
 
Beady said:
That's a pretty cold blanket to sleep under.
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Yes, but it doesn't follow that a warm blanket that isn't there would be better.

I value the truth, even though it's not always warm and fuzzy.
 
Luke T. said:
Absolutely. But learning takes an effort. It's easier to believe Zeus throws lightning bolts than it is to learn about physics.

And there is a human need to have a reason for Zeus zapping your ass.
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It's Thor, you infidel.
 
Darat said:
Compassion can go hand in hand with the truth so there is no need for the two to be divorced.
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Too soon we forget this.

Carnivore said:
My mother is a devoutly religious person. Not in a showy or evangelical way, I doubt many people who know her socially or professionaly are aware of her beliefs. She is just a lovely person who agrees very strongly with the Christian principles of compassion,tolerance and love. She is not a stupid person, and believes she has enough personal proof of God's existence to justify her faith.

I disagree with her on this, but I would never try to convince her that she is wrong.Possibly this is cowardice or hypocracy on my part, but I know that arguing with her about it would serve no useful purpose in convicing her she is wrong. (I have no proof that I am right and she believes she has subjective proof that she is right.) More importantly, it would hurt her. I know that her faith has helped her through some difficult times in her life, brings her into contact with good friends and provides her with a network for contributing to the community.

Sure, in my version of a perfect world she wouldnt need religion for any of those things, but here and now it's what she's got. And I dont feel any desire to take it away from her.

Apart from her religion, my Mum is a smart, skeptical person. She doesnt need protecting from any other sort of woo, and her religious beliefs are based on reality as she perceives it. I cant help but feel that aggressively trying to enlighten her "for her own good" would be an unkind and unnessacary act. I'm sure others will disagree.
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We should be wary in the arrogance or ignorance of our own beliefs to think there is any worth or benefit in trying to remove the belief of God from the heart of a person like this. In trying to remove the truth that this person (note I'm referring to a person such as Carnivore's mum) centers themselves on what do you hope to accomplish? What is the end result? What foundation do you have offer in return? Will it benefit her as it has for you?
 
Axenos said:
Agreed. I suppose I am a cynic by definition...

When it's all said and done, what are we really except pack animal mammals with deoderant and an inherent ability to hurt and/or destroy ourselves?

Regards,

Axenos
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Far, far more under sun and sky. We also have the inherent ability for compassion, for exploration, for inquisition to name a few. In between the killing ourselves we named the stars, peered their centers, pierced the firmament, and somehow between all of that at least one of us suppressed the inherent ability for self-destruction just long enough to raise you.
 
lots of kool-aid offered, in any flavor you might like....

I refuse the kool-aid, otherwise, call a wank a wank and a douche a douche, if they just cannot tell the truth but to make the story they are SELLING worthwhile, then call them a lying thief...so often, the sad point of it all really is, the inability for all of mankind to accept that we do not know a great deal about anything really and most of what we do profess to know is merely the naming of something otherwise not understandable and through this artificial means of "identity" we can make something unknown, reduced in size that we might feel we have control over it...but it is only a lie.

someone is always telling us "there is a purpose for your life", "there is always a reason things happen they way they do, things happen for a reason" and it does make one feel good..to even give meaning to one's life...life does not have to have meaning, reason, right or wrong holdings to be, it is...anyone compounding that with their own ideas and thinking often misses the boat but when they insist that it is the truth..that is something else altogether different...many people are earnestly looking for answers and at least 90% of the people offering them are self-deceived to begin with as is...like taking a brick to the head of a mule that won't move, sometimes, that is what it takes to keep things moving along...just that the truth hurts...for these people an even greater tome of lies is created as a defense to the truth...see skepdic's "true believer syndrome"...

jm
 

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LONGWALK said:
I refuse the kool-aid, otherwise, call a wank a wank and a douche a douche,
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That's very classy but as long as you've got your priorities straight, good for you.
so often, the sad point of it all really is, the inability for all of mankind to accept that we do not know a great deal about anything really and most of what we do profess to know is merely the naming of something otherwise not understandable and through this artificial means of "identity" we can make something unknown, reduced in size that we might feel we have control over it...but it is only a lie.
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Now I'm gonna look silly as I made the assertion a few posts back that realizing you don't know $#!T sets you free but I feel compelled to mention the fact that through our collective efforts we've come to understand a great many things quite well and quite thoroughly. This is by no means a contradiction to the fact that there is so much more we don't understand.
snip...life does not have to have meaning, reason, right or wrong holdings to be,
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I'm not arguing the contrary but I will assert that neither of us is in any position of authority to make that call.
like taking a brick to the head of a mule that won't move, sometimes, that is what it takes to keep things moving along...
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Can you unfailingly judge who is a mule and who needs a brick?
just that the truth hurts...
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That depends.
for these people an even greater tome of lies is created as a defense to the truth...see skepdic's "true believer syndrome"...
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For myself, I'll look to the human condition for answers on that.
 
kitakaze said:
Far, far more under sun and sky. We also have the inherent ability for compassion, for exploration, for inquisition to name a few. In between the killing ourselves we named the stars, peered their centers, pierced the firmament, and somehow between all of that at least one of us suppressed the inherent ability for self-destruction just long enough to raise you.
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True enough... my comment was more of a tongue-in-cheek oversimplification... I tend to prefer very subtle humor... sometimes only humorous to me... :)

Regards,

Axe
 
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