Astrology Readings.

[theMark]

It's a pretty good description of me, and I'm not even the same sign.

Same here! Man, this astrolology stuff is absolutely amazing. NOT.

 

[SlayerofCliffracers]

Same here! Man, this astrolology stuff is absolutely amazing. NOT.

The amount of mockery I get from people here means I know longer trust any of you at all to give an honest reply to anything.

The Forer Effect and confirmation bias would exaggerate the perceived accuracy of astrology if it was valid, and account for that perceived accuracy completely if it is not valid.

Are you suggesting that they might also have led people to think there are correlations which don't really exist, whilst failing to notice correlations that do really exist? I suppose that's just about possible, though I would have thought any genuine correlation would have been picked up on over the millenia. But any such previously unnoticed correlation should have been identified in studies such as the recent time twins study: http://www.humanists.110mb.com/leisure/astrology.html/odyframe.htm

The Time Twins study is basicaly invalid. Because within a group that is very similar differences will be picked up and even exaggerated, because the group sets it's own baseline of normality. Non-Astrological variables would create differences in the result.

Only if Astrology were the 'only game in town' would the study is valid.

Genuine correlations may indeed be picked up, but that doesn't necceserily mean they will be remembered and transmitted to other Astrologers does it?

Because it is impossable to isolate variables from eachother, this means that one can mistakenly support a claim about something by something else that also happens to be present.

Since everyone wants to be right, if they derive a false conclusion, they can always support the false conclusion by whatever happens to also be present in the chart, which gives at least a somewhat similar effect. Or even invent new falsehoods to support the original falsehood.

'Parasite claims' can exist. What these are is claims that were originally coincidental but have appeared to render themselves 'true' because they are able to exploit other claims.

This is helped by the fact that our language doesn't really have enough words to record the exact differences between different signs, so the same word say Stubbornness can be assigned to multiple signs, even though in actuality the form taken by the Stubbornness is vastly different in actuality.

A person whose definition of Stubbornness does not recognise all of the signs that are 'Stubborn' as Stubborn, might also 'disprove' a true claim, because what they say is picked up by another person with a broader definition.

 

[Audible Click]

<snip>The amount of mockery I get from people here means I know longer trust any of you at all to give an honest reply to anything. <snip>

Then lets consider this discussion at an end and let the thread drop off the page.

 

[SlayerofCliffracers]

<snip>The amount of mockery I get from people here means I know longer trust any of you at all to give an honest reply to anything. <snip>

Then lets consider this discussion at an end and let the thread drop off the page.

I mean the whole forum not just this thread. I find a rather childish attitude pre-dominates in this place. A strong willingness to resort to sarcasm and mockery in response to threads.

 

[six7s]

I find a rather childish attitude pre-dominates in this place.

That's cos - like all Sagittarians - we were born at a very young age

 

[desertyeti]

I mean the whole forum not just this thread. I find a rather childish attitude pre-dominates in this place. A strong willingness to resort to sarcasm and mockery in response to threads.

I know you are, but what am I?

 

[kbm99]

I mean the whole forum not just this thread. I find a rather childish attitude pre-dominates in this place. A strong willingness to resort to sarcasm and mockery in response to threads.

If that's what you get out of reading this forum, my advice to you would be to go back to playing Morrowind. That's probably going to be a much more productive use of your computer than trying to punch above your weight here.

 

[Fnord]

It is the tendency for long-term members of this website to resort to mockery, derision, and sarcasm when encountering childish newbs who post deceptive, delusional, fallacious, or false claims and who also erroneously expect nothing less than the highest respect from those same long-term members.

That's what makes JREF so great!

 

[theMark]

The amount of mockery I get from people here means I know longer trust any of you at all to give an honest reply to anything.

You are aware that I have given you an honest reply, aren't you?

The reading/horoscope/profile you gave was so non-specific as to be essentially meaningless. It did fit me, and I was just strolling through the threads when I found this one here. Those Barnum texts do fit everybody and nobody, depending on how narrow or wide the "considered a hit" criteria is set.

As to the second part of my comment, yes, indeed, I am NOT impressed by the "accuracy" of the whole affair. So this part was also honest. Maybe too painfully so.

 

[paximperium]

By a major player in his church do you mean clergyman?

You tell me.

The saving money bit is interesting. Because of the 5th House is not exactly a frugal house, while the Tauros Sun definately is. The contradiction, the psuedo-hit as you put it makes Astrological sense.

No it does not. He has a reason for it. You tell me.

Perhaps it actually means the precise opposite. Maybe it means that the person is prone to those things? I was betting it was you so I went for the former course.

Nice attempt in turning a wrong into a right hit. No points.

Great. A fat lot of good you are. Can't even tell me if someone is bad or good.

No. You tell me.

Is he an emotionally charged speaker then?

You tell me.

It was Maths or Science.

Which would have fit nearly any professional. Why don't you tell me kind of science?

It is what the Astrology says.

It doesn't say much does it?

That might just be the more concrete effects of the Uranus opposition then. I did note a contradiction there.

True. You always put in an escape hatch.

Maybe 10th House Jupiter simply means Clergyman or Philosopher then. My sister has it and she got As at everything, despite all the difficulties she had.

You tell me.

Love life with whom?

Personal. Current and future.

As for career well, something of the following.

Church/Philosophy (Jupiter).
Beauty/Fashion (Libra).
Leadership/Power (Ceres).

What does that even mean? Give me a career.

Well your cold reading is interesting. Keep trying.

 

[desertyeti]

That might just be the more concrete effects of the Uranus opposition then. I did note a contradiction there.

There ya go, blamin' the contradiction on Uranus!

 

[Uncayimmy]

So, does astrology predict whether certain signs are more or less likely to believe in astrology (or be skeptics)?

 

[Fnord]

A Reference Source for the Term "Cold Reading"

Just to be helpful...

"Cold reading refers to a set of techniques used by professional manipulators to get a subject to behave in a certain way or to think that the cold reader has some sort of special ability that allows him to "mysteriously" know things about the subject. Cold reading goes beyond the usual tools of manipulation: suggestion and flattery. In cold reading, salespersons, hypnotists, advertising pros, faith healers, con men, and some therapists bank on their subject's inclination to find more meaning in a situation than there actually is. The desire to make sense out of experience can lead us to many wonderful discoveries, but it can also lead us to many follies. The manipulator knows that his mark will be inclined to try to make sense out of whatever he is told, no matter how farfetched or improbable. He knows, too, that people are generally self-centered, that we tend to have unrealistic views of ourselves, and that we will generally accept claims about ourselves that reflect not how we are or even how we really think we are but how we wish we were or think we should be. He also knows that for every several claims he makes about you that you reject as being inaccurate, he will make one that meets with your approval; and he knows that you are likely to remember the hits he makes and forget the misses. Thus, a good manipulator can provide a reading of a total stranger, which will make the stranger feel that the manipulator possesses some special power..."

> LINK TO SKEPTIC's DICTIONARY ARTICLE <​

"Cold reading is a series of techniques used by mentalists, fortune tellers, psychics, and mediums to determine details about another person in order to convince them that the reader knows much more about a subject than he or she actually does. Even without prior knowledge of a person, a practiced cold reader can still quickly obtain a great deal of information about the subject by carefully analyzing the person's body language, clothing or fashion, hairstyle, gender, sexual orientation, religion, race or ethnicity, level of education, manner of speech, place of origin, etc. Cold readers commonly employ high probability guesses about the subject, quickly picking up on signals from their subjects as to whether their guesses are in the right direction or not, and then emphasizing and reinforcing any chance connections the subjects acknowledge while quickly moving on from missed guesses."

> LINK TO WIKIPEDIA's ARTICLE <

It's all about manipulation and deception.​

 

[lauwersw]

You tell me.
You tell me.

No. You tell me.
You tell me.

You tell me.

While reading this response this is what struck me: suppose that astrology can make some predictions a bit above chance, what's the use of it? It's all so vague that I can't imagine it will have any impact on my life in any way.

The only thing it could do (if it worked) is describe some general traits of a person with some accuracy. Either I know all that already about myself, thanks, or I can easily find out about somebody else by having a conversation or doing some real research and probably with much higher accuracy. Not really interesting.

 

[paximperium]

While reading this response this is what struck me: suppose that astrology can make some predictions a bit above chance, what's the use of it? It's all so vague that I can't imagine it will have any impact on my life in any way.

The only thing it could do (if it worked) is describe some general traits of a person with some accuracy. Either I know all that already about myself, thanks, or I can easily find out about somebody else by having a conversation or doing some real research and probably with much higher accuracy. Not really interesting.

He is cold reading. It only works if you give them something to work with.

I used my brother so he can't read him through my style of writing and personality(which is not how I am in real life either) since I am very different from him. I live in the US and he lives in England. We're separated by a bunch of years and we grew up in different countries in different stages of our lives. I'm an atheist and he is a theist.

So far I'm unimpressed.

 

[fromdownunder]

The amount of mockery I get from people here means I know longer trust any of you at all to give an honest reply to anything.

Well, on the other thread, I gave you all the information you required to do a reading, and you did not respond at all. Why? And I gave a full date, time, location, sex, current place of residence for the person.

Nobody here has any reason to lie about anything. but if all astrology is, is general generic information which tells nobody anything that actually matters, can apply to 95% of the population, no matter when they were born, and, here is serious question, what good is it?

Therapy? "Feel good"? Money Making? Please be specific. If it cannot do more than generally say "you are....x.... type of person" what actual genuine value do you ascribe to astrology? I could probably do the same things with the entrails of an owl, if I wanted to be a con artist.

Norm

 

[EHocking]

He is cold reading. It only works if you give them something to work with.

I used my brother so he can't read him through my style of writing and personality(which is not how I am in real life either) since I am very different from him. I live in the US and he lives in England. We're separated by a bunch of years and we grew up in different countries in different stages of our lives. I'm an atheist and he is a theist.

So far I'm unimpressed.

Here's my attempt at tabulating your response to his guessing.

Short post is - 11% hit rate from total of 19.
22% hit rate from a total of 9 if the vague ones are removed.

Reading | Response | Hit | Miss | Unknown
PaxImperium | This is my brother. Close but a miss. | | X |
You are primarily concerned with food, drink and games. | The dude is vegetarian and he doesn't drink. Miss. | | X |
You are somewhat hedonistic, but you are still very careful with money and tend to save money rather than spending it. | He is currently saving money but he is a major waster of cash when we were kids. Pseudo-hit. | X | |
This being said you have a general problem with change and a more specific problem with relating to new people or to changes in your friends characters. | Don't know about the last one...he's a major player in his church and moved from Malaysia to Singapore to Philadelphia and finally to Blackburn with no problems fitting in and making friends.-miss | | X |
You are the natural thorn in the side of false appearances, you are fated to devote much of your time to conflict with those deceived by appearances because they draw hasty conclusions from the world around them. | A bit too vague for me to really say anything. No call. | | | X
You are a law-abiding and well-behaved person. | Sure, so is most of the human race...unless you're a sociopath. No points. | | | X
You have a great need to fit in with a group rather than stick out and be original. | Sure, so is most of the human race...unless you're a sociopath. No points. | | | X
You fear becoming socially isolated if you do so. | Sure, so is most of the human race...unless you're a sociopath. No points. | | | X
However this does not appear to harmonise particular well with something else in your chart. | Sure, so is most of the human race...unless you're a sociopath. No points. | | | X
You have a deep emotional need to talk, to communicate with others. | First part is too vague and the part about word-games and puzzles is false. Miss. | | | X
You are a witty and amusing person. | First part is too vague and the part about word-games and puzzles is false. Miss. | | | X
You most likely keep yourself amused with word-games and puzzles. | First part is too vague and the part about word-games and puzzles is false. Miss. | | X |
You have an easy time describing and understanding structure and pattern, which means you are probably rather adept at science and mathematics. | Head smack. Well, you've identified about anyone who is a professional. He is definitely adept at science but not very good at math. Vague hit. | X | |
Your imagination is predominant over what you do, you act to realise your dreams even at the expense of long-term planning and the completion of past projects. | Too vague to be useful. | | | X
You do find it easy however to find the energy to accomplish your will. | Too vague to be useful. | | | X
You greatly enjoy arguing for your own beliefs with others, beliefs which tend not to change very easily or often. | Major miss. He hates talking to me about religion or some of the woo he believes in. | | X |
This is an over-developed aspect of your character and you frequently do not know when to stop. | Major miss. He hates talking to me about religion or some of the woo he believes in. | | X |
You appear to have great ability to succeed relatively easily and effortlessly in education and also in your career. | Well he is a smart guy but can't call his career "easy" or "effortless". He has failed on several occasions and worked very hard for what he does. Miss. | | X |
You appear to also have the potential to transform either the Scientific or the Legal world. | Too vague and unlikely. | | | X
| | 2 | 7 | 10
| Total Responses | 11% | 37% | 53%
| Scored Responses | 22% | 78% |

 

[Cuddles]

A strong willingness to resort to sarcasm and mockery in response to threads.

Close, but not quite. There is a strong willingness to resort to sarcasm and mockery in response to thread that deserve nothing more than sarcasm and mockery. The fact that so far this applies to every thread you have posted really ought to tell you something. Perhaps if instead of whining about people laughing at juvenile arguments you actually tried responding sensibly to criticism you would find this forum a better place.

 

[SlayerofCliffracers]

You tell me.

I say yes. The reason is that Jupiter has a traditional assosiation with clergymen and religion whilst the 10th House is fairly securely career and life-path.

The trouble is that obviously everyone cannot become a clergymen. Also if someone is highly philosophical/religious in the concerns, they might simply stop believing in religion.

No it does not. He has a reason for it. You tell me.

The Astrology was contradictory. I betted on Tauros frugality being stronger than 5th House extravagance. And I got the predictable contradictary result.

However if I had simply told you it was contradictory, then what do think you would have done?

Nice attempt in turning a wrong into a right hit. No points.

I am doing no such thing so relax. I admit that I was wrong.

But what I am doing is taking the experimental evidence into account. I made a prediction based limited, poor and disputed theory and I have ripped up the theory because it is not supported by the evidence.

No. You tell me.

Yes.

You tell me.

That isn't a valid response to what I said.

Which would have fit nearly any professional. Why don't you tell me kind of science?

Do you think I can just on google and type in forms of Science ruled by Libra?

But if I have to I would predict Social Sciences. Again not because I know but because it goes along with the Libra theme.

It doesn't say much does it?

Your brothers horoscope is unusually simple. That's why it doesn't say much.

True. You always put in an escape hatch.

It still counts as a miss. I just I have to explain the misses away.

Again I had to bet.

Personal. Current and future.

I am a bit unromantic evidently since I know next to nothing about the subject of how to predict 'love and relationships' from a natal chart alone.

If I had to predict, I would predict that he is attracted primerily to people with a strong presence of Pisces in their charts.

What does that even mean? Give me a career.

The problem here is that everything I know points to big, important and grand careers, not the kind of pushing around shelves in supermarkets.

Scorpio supposadly rules all the following.

QUOTE]
Scorpio Careers: Chemistry, colon therapist, pharmacists, insurance, mysticism, spirituality, psychiatrists, locksmiths, mortuaries, doctor's offices, apothecaries, autospies, bathrooms, butchers, cabinet of the President or Prime Minister, cemetary association, tax or bill collectors, crematories, places where death is prominent, detectives, investigators, druggist, drugstores, pharmacists, pharmacy, insurance, life insurance, first aid, embalmers, executioners, mobs, laboratories, medicine, morticians, morgues, surgery, reproduction, scientists.[/QUOTE]

Tough job career predicting. So many jobs and so few signs.

Well your cold reading is interesting. Keep trying.

Not predicting what you already think you know is false is not called Cold Reading.

There ya go, blamin' the contradiction on Uranus!

Uranus is the planet of Rebellion desertyeti

So, does astrology predict whether certain signs are more or less likely to believe in astrology (or be skeptics)?

Signs would definately not be enough. But skeptics should have prominant Saturns in their chart and weak Neptunes.

Since Neptune rules the Paranormal one should expect a rough relationship within the Skeptics chart to Neptune.

Since Saturn rules rules, restrictions, tests and natural sciences, one would expect an extremely prominant Saturn with a positive relationship to key planets. In particular Intellectual ones.

This extends to between Saturn and Neptune. One would expect particularly poor relationships between these two planets, with the former having the advantage.

He is cold reading. It only works if you give them something to work with.

I used my brother so he can't read him through my style of writing and personality(which is not how I am in real life either) since I am very different from him. I live in the US and he lives in England. We're separated by a bunch of years and we grew up in different countries in different stages of our lives. I'm an atheist and he is a theist.

So far I'm unimpressed.

Correct. It only works if you give us something to work with. Do you think we pulled all our ideas out of thin air? What you call Cold Reading is what we call Research.

If information about a person is evident, do you really think we would contradict evidence that we already know in order to support theories which are invalidated by that very evidence.

Clinging to theories in the face of contradictory evidence is not meritorious.

But I never added a shred of information based upon Cold Reading. I merely eliminated information about your brother that follows Astrologically from his chart.

 

[L The Detective]

I mean the whole forum not just this thread. I find a rather childish attitude pre-dominates in this place. A strong willingness to resort to sarcasm and mockery in response to threads.

This is not so much a "JREF" thing. It's a natural human response to ideas that they think are ridiculous or childish. However, you shouldn't just lump everyone here in the forum into one group like that... I personally don't think your ideas about astrology have any merit at all, and I find it a little baffling why you cling to these ideas. But at the same time, I try never to mock or antagonize anyone I disagree with, because if I do then they won't be willing to honestly consider what I have to say.

Anyway, I apologize for the people here who have mocked you, but putting that aside, they have also made lots of great points about the flaws in your ideas, points which you should seriously consider.