Astrological fun and games

[Cleopatra]

Good morning Marrena and thank you for your time to have a look at my chart.

Cleopatra, if I were a cold reader I could tell much about you just from your two posts.

If _I_ were a cold reader I wouldn't need any post to have a first image of what Cleopatra persona is like. Posts? My signature, my avatar and my custom title speak volumes.

Will mind my astrological p's and q's since you know what you are talking about.

Yes I do know of what you are talking about, I have spent years studying astrology, I am not a believer any more though.

Now, I would like to comment on the short analysis of my character that you posted not in order to argue with you but I want to conclude with the problems I see in the psychological astrology you seem to practice.

Your chart, which it sounds like you already know--you've got a Water singleton. A NEPTUNE water singleton, in Scorpio, in your third house so you love to talk about woo-woo things.

I guess that I along with the rest of 3,417 members of this forum show some interest in the paranormal claims, otherwise we wouldn't have joined this forum, don't you think?

In many ways you are like a Pisces. You've got a powerful spiritual vibe. Throw in the fact you have Pluto, planet of sex and life and death, and Uranus, planet of the freaky and unusual, in your first house, house of self--you are not a woman who "blends."

The fact that I do not blend is it a positive or negative trait of my chart?

Interesting thing about this is that underneath all that, you're a Taurus Sun with Virgo rising, so your feet are definitely on the ground. Must be as uncomfortable a fit for you as my Capricorn Sun with Pisces rising and my freaky tight Sun-Neptune-Jupiter yod throwing its weight around in unpredictable ways in my life.

Unpredictable? I thought that Astrology could predict future events. Plato used to say that you cannot really be a dreamer of the future if both of your feet are not down to earth. Usually people at my age that already have a life and a career have both feet down to earth, most of the people of my age who have even an average level of education are interested about the future of the society they live in. You meet many people like me in fora like this one.

Heavy ninth house, Sun is there along with Saturn conjuncting your chart ruler Mercury--academia is your home (unless you're a world traveller, which I'm guessing you are from your birthplace, so it could be both or either).

How you connect my birthplace wiith my being a traveller? Maybe this would have a connection if you were studying the chart of my mother ( or my father) who gave birth to me in Jerusalem, also allow me to remark that all the charts you examined above belong to people that are involved with "academia". Also, my Saturn is in the 9th House as well and it conjucts the Mercury as you noticed, this must make me sort of slow in learning and in conceiving ideas.

Career involving Mars and Venus in Gemini--more talking. I'm not sure how you can have a career talking about love and sex, but it could be beauty too, I suppose.

Mars in Gemini conjucting Venus but squaring Pluto. I could be a journalist too who specializes in composing obituaries, I could be a teacher, a forensic surgeon,a painter( Mars in Gemini) or a mechanic( Mars in Gemini, I can fix anything with those hands of mine) but I am a Taurus as well, I could be an excellent singer, a banker, a lawyer,I could easily deal with success with the stockmarket, I could be an interior designer( Sun in Taurus, Moon and Jupiter in Libra), I could be working with young people( Sun in Taurus, Venus in Gemini) and with True Node in Pisces I wonder why I did not become a shrink I would become the best even better than Freud who was a Taurus as well.

Is there any professional field that my chart doesn't cover and doesn't give me options?

Very Venusian chart.

Is there a woman that she would deny that?

Moon in the second house means fluctuating finances, but you've got lucky Jupiter there too, also in Libra.

Yeah but it also means that I might be wealthy by my father or a husband and Jupiter's grace will shine upon me after I become 40.

BTW, if you are a believer--best love match IMHO, Aries moon in less than three degree opposition. Of course also good angles in synastry.

Every smart good looking, educated with good manners male is a potential lover for me, I don't know if I have to blame it on my Venus and Mars in Gemini, or my Moon in Libra or my Sun in Taurus or the cusp of my fifth house or my eighth in Aries and the reason why I do not know which planets control my taste in men is that there are zilliion of women who are attracted by smart, good looking, educated and well bred males.

I have a question for you. Will I ever get married and have kids?

 

[Cleopatra]

Hmm, let me guess, you're going to tell me dreamers often lie. That horoscope was yours, Mercutio. If you have a printout of another horoscope, it probably isn't an accurate one. Computer-generated horoscopes generally don't have sophisticated enough software to focus on the singletons--they just print out every dang thing on the chart without telling you what is important. Pretty useless unless you have a perfectly balanced chart, in which case the classic ranking of Sun, Moon, rising sign should apply. Hopefully the software will get more sophisticated, the algorithm isn't that tricky, even for the location singletons.

This is not actually an argument because each astrologer focuses more or less on different aspects of charts, for example you do not focus at all in the Nodes or on asteroids etc.

Computer charts can give excellent analysis for the kind of astrology you have demonstrated here, psychological astrology that is and in order to persuade you let me post what Liz Green's astrodienst.com thinks about my character....

Sun in Taurus, Moon in Libra

You were born with the Sun in Taurus and the Moon in Libra. Internally, you have sufficient self-confidence and strength of character to pursue and secure any goal you wish. Others, however, perceiving you as an affable, affectionate individual, do not suspect your latent ambition. [...]

[...]You are usually generous and free, but are also inclined to be frugal and overly concerned with financial matters.[...]

[...]The key to a better integration of your personality is to harmonize your strong internal character with your designated personality roles.[...]

The pc thinks as well that I do not blend very well...

Ascendant in Virgo, Mercury in the Ninth House

At the time of your birth the zodiacal sign of Virgo was ascending in the horizon. Its ruler Mercury is located in the ninth house. [...]

[...]Life will find you in many situations in which you will function as advisor and counsellor; make use of these opportunities to project the power of your creativeness[...]

[...]Mercury, in this house indicates a devotion to knowledge and a mind which is analytical and inquiring. The position, however, is not unconditionally favorable as it tends to give you a dislike for the more material aspects of life and perhaps puts too much emphasis on the abstract modes of thought. You should try to develop more of the practical side of Virgo and adapt your higher thoughts to practical realizations.[...]

I wonder if is there anybody in this forum that cannot recognize him/herself in the description above

Moon in the Second House

The Moon was found in the second house at the time of your birth. Your business dealings and means of income will consist of a multiplicity of activities where you must relate to many people. The position is generally good.

In any case, expect a fortune which holds variation and fluctuation. Try to orient your monetary dealings to the general public for you possess the ability to succeed when in touch with the popular masses.

Hey this software is not so bad!!! It totally agrees with your analysis.

 

[Marrena]

I have a question for you. Will I ever get married and have kids?

According to your chart, bad first marriage (or possibly marriage to someone very sick). Second marriage good and robust, although difficult.

Empty fifth house so while kids possible you are not a woman who lives for her children.

 

[Cleopatra]

Mercutio has an empty 5th house as well but he has kids.... I guess that I must not lose hope....

 

[Cleopatra]

Since you practice psychological astrology Marrena I would very much appreciate if you could post a comment the following that I posted a couple of months ago while addressing another astrologer that has visited the forum.

Some time ago some skeptics thought that they should give Astrology a chance to prove what it can offer. So, they chose a famous man who was born in Chicago on 17 March 1942 at 00:49 CST, or 05:49 GMT, CST being the time required by Illinois for birth registration even though War Time was then in effect. Some hospitals did not follow this rule, so the birth time might have been 06:49 GMT. Both times give a Sagittarius ascendant. A skeptic had this data and visited 5 well known astrologers to ask them if he would be good in educating young people.

I think that you will agree that it's a legitimate question, right?

So let's see what happened.

This is what the Astrologers said for this man:

"I think that you can be very good with kids and that might be a good medium for you to learn to be more trusting in the giving and receiving."

"...just your presence would be of a beneficial nature to other people, a real calming kind of effect... In the past you have used your energies well: so therefore, in this life you have a lot to contribute and you will have some problems but basically your life will be very, very positive."

"...a fairly well-rounded personality...you can offer a good role model...when you're working with young people you're not gonna have a lot of heavy-duty problems."

"Helpful, understanding of the needs of others. At times a sucker for anyone who needs help... Kind, gentle, considerate of others needs."

"At your best, you are very impressionable and radiate the unconditional love of a happy infant... You have an instinctive awareness and your uninhibited response to life can refresh and gladden whomever you encounter."

According to five well known Astrologers he was perfect for becoming a teacher for the young.

The only problem was that the person who was born on 17 March 1942 could not become a teacher because when the test was performed he received 12 death sentences and 21 life terms for the brutal torture and murder of 33 young men and boys. He was executed by lethal injection on 10 May 1994.
Gacy ( this was this man's name) was selected for the test because his chart should portray a clear picture of a sadistic sexually motivated killer. If astrologers are able to spot personality traits and destinies in any chart, then this is the one they should have no trouble with....

In order to read about this experiment in full click here

 

[Marrena]

I had a look at the chart. There are incompetent astrologers just as there are incompetent scientists. That's why I didn't want to get into a big argument about your previous post. The astrodienst software does not agree with my technique because it doesn't weight things according to the proper importance. The reason I came here wasn't to disprove astrology in general to myself because the field is rife with idiots, it was to disprove the astrological technique that weights according to singletons, etc., as I explained previously.

I took a look at Gacy's chart. He's a double Pisces, so many astrologers would say exactly what you did--sensitive, compassionate, etc. However, he has a fire singleton. He's got Pluto in Leo in the 8th house. The planet of sex, life, death and regeneration in the house of sex, life, death and regeneration. And he's got Chiron there too, asteroid of sickness and healing.

I wouldn't have pegged him a serial killer. If Pluto had been in Aries I would have wondered, but Leo while a fire sign is pretty benign. There's nothing violent in his chart, nothing in his 12th house, and most contradicting--he has no cardinal signs. To be a serial killer rather than just a killer takes initiative and a cool head (Capricorn is often Sun, Moon or rising sign). Likewise a Pluto placement like that would be a great placement for a surgeon, but he doesn't have any of the other stuff for it. That would be a spectacular chart for an actor, however, a very sexual one. Whatever he could have been, with a chart like that the overwhelming thing about him is sex, so I wouldn't say he'd be great to be around children unless he had a very active sex life.

So this doesn't disprove astrology to me (although there have been other things in this thread that have). Free will is involved--someone with a chart showing extreme emotional sensitivity combined with an overwhelming sex drive--I don't know anything about him, but if he were brought up being taught that sex is especially dirty and shameful I could see how it could happen.

 

[Mercutio]

Hmm, let me guess, you're going to tell me dreamers often lie. That horoscope was yours, Mercutio. If you have a printout of another horoscope, it probably isn't an accurate one. Computer-generated horoscopes generally don't have sophisticated enough software to focus on the singletons--they just print out every dang thing on the chart without telling you what is important. Pretty useless unless you have a perfectly balanced chart, in which case the classic ranking of Sun, Moon, rising sign should apply. Hopefully the software will get more sophisticated, the algorithm isn't that tricky, even for the location singletons.

When I said printout, I was referring to a PM (a series, actually) in which the reader described me in rather more detail than your reading did. I do not know whether a computer was used in the generation of the reading; I do know that the reader would not have necessarily needed to do that.

Um...when you say "a lot of time spent with mental health professionals, unless you have some creative outlet"...(what a delightfully ambiguous phrase)...are you implying I have had the need for a shrink?

(I picked that particular bit because it was just so fun, but the same could be said for any number of the sentences. My other horoscope was far more specific. Not that you have to, but could you be more specific in mine?)

 

[The Mighty Thor]

I wouldn't care a hoot about the validity of astrology if people really only used it for personal entertainment. What scares me is when people use to make decisions that affect others. A certain Danish astrologer we know proposes using "business astrology" to make decisions about people's careers or business strategy. You have suggested using it to make decisions about relationships.

When there are so many permutations and so much is open to interpretation how can you ever be sure that a decision was the right decision? Or that your interpretation was truly objective and not influenced by what you "wanted" to be true?

To give astrology its due it was originally a "science" but that part of it parted company around the time of Kepler and has been diverging further and faster ever since. I would be interested in seeing more truly objective tests rather than just "statistics" gleaned by people trying to prove a point.

While I agree that this has been a fun thread and that Marrena has been personable and far from dogmatic, I think that says much more about her character than it does about astrology in general.

Like Blondin, I worry when people with immense power become followers of paranormal charlatans. The Reagans were, if I remember correctly, open to astrological influences in decision making. Mrs Blair has been known to 'dabble' in things paranormal, as did Princess Diana. And, of course, the British Royals have supported alternative therapies of no proven worth. Our young people are being bombarded with superstitious nonsense from all angles. Pop culture 'stars' are seen to give credence to everything from Scientology to Kabbalah.

I hope jambo373 will not take offense if I use him/her as an example.

jambo372

Thank you Marrena - I understood what you were talking about - I am actually planning on having a career in medicine .

Now what if a 'bad' astrologer said to jambo373, 'From your details, I think you have a great propensity for the arts. Your chart tells me that your energies would be well directed in that area -- but avoid the sciences at all costs. Your 'type' shows you are a very spiritual person, but would not be very good at worldly pursuits or practical science.'

OK -- I guess that Marrena would never post such a revelation, and I am not suggesting she would. BUT -- how is jambo373 supposed to know the 'good' astrologer from the 'bad'?

If a career in medicine is his goal, then should we at the JREF at least try to steer him in the direction of reading more science books, engaging in critical thinking, and doing more science. How can mentors make science more 'hip'? Paranormal stuff is much 'easier', and no doubt much more fun to talk about with your mates than are trig equations to 'most' young people. Indeed, most of us here have probably been there, bought the book, the t-shirt, and seen the film.

I dearly hope that Marrena and jambo373 will keep posting and reading here. I hope jambo373 will start to see that, in science, anecdotal evidence is of little value. It is the scientific method that has given us modern medicine. All the homeopathy, hypnotherapy, aromatherapy, healing touch, and prayer therapy in the world will not heal a broken leg or perform bypass surgery on a failing human heart. And teenage Russian girls cannot see inside human bodies, or diagnose illnesses. Doctors can!

How do we keep the jambos of the forum engaged, and help them to see past the flim-flam and doublespeak of the Interesting Ians, lifegazers, and the like who perpetually post paranormal nonsense here, in a forum dedicated to educating people in critical thinking?

 

[Marrena]

Um...when you say "a lot of time spent with mental health professionals, unless you have some creative outlet"...(what a delightfully ambiguous phrase)...are you implying I have had the need for a shrink?

I was trying to be euphemistically polite, but that's a chart of someone who is very likely stark raving bonkers. Fun and creative, but stark raving bonkers. How exactly that could manifest in a person's life, I couldn't say, and an astrologer who did say would be just making educated guesses and not relying on what astrology tells. Sure there are lots of other things about your personality in the chart, nuances and so forth, but applying the singleton rule about the most obvious thing on the chart is the most obvious thing in the life--you have two and one of them is stark raving bonkers. I would go so far as to say that chart would almost ensure that at some point the person had spent time in a mental institution, but that's an educated guess on my part, not in the chart.

As for the post about influencing the young, if people are asking for it I will because I figure better me than someone else. On the other hand I've stopped letting it be known that I do it for precisely that reason, because I was unsure of the veracity. I figured I'd be safe here in the land of skeptics (although even here I'm a bit reluctant to be plainsaid about Mercutio's--don't want to encourage someone to madness).

On the other hand, I violently disagree with the rest of the post. Science as an ideal and science as practiced in the real world are two very different things, especially when it comes to medicine. Doctors are incredibly inept actually when it comes to helping people stay well. They can help them avoid death but they are very bad at health. Doctors' training comes from the battlefield and has a focus on treating sudden injury and fixing emergencies. Very bad mesh with holistic treatment, especially when combined at least in America with the unholy influence of pharmaceutical companies on the medical community. I think the worst thing is this robs the individual of feeling empowered to make his own health decisions in daily life. Yes, I would rather have a doctor than anyone else fix a broken leg, and prescription drugs are a godsend when it comes to certain infectious diseases, but for advice on how to live to a limber, fit and healthy old age most doctors are clueless.

Getting rid of old wives' tales of curing warts by washing them in silver basin in the full moon also got rid of old wives' tales on how to eat healthy and stay healthy. People ask their doctors now, the same people who gave us the Food Pyramid that has helped to contribute to the explosion of obesity in this country.

 

[Ashles]

but for advice on how to live to a limber, fit and healthy old age most doctors are clueless.

Again, that's not a fair generalisation. I'm pretty sure most doctors could give you some fairly excellent advice - but people never go to them for that do they. And people rarely listen.
If I want to know how to live as healthily a possible I would happily go to a doctor. They are not all brilliant, but that's the same with all professions.
Why who would you trust to give you health advice over a doctor? A Wiccan?
Is it not dctors you are going to to help you examine your propsed diet?

I hardly think exercise regularly, eat a balanced diet, don't drink or smoke drink plenty of fluids etc. are 'Old wives tales'.

 

[Cleopatra]

Hi Marrena.

I do not wish to persuade you that Astrology doesn't work either, I just wish to point out the problems I see in the Art you practice.

First of all I agree with you. Astrology claims that humans have the option to exercise their free will. The chart reveals the pattern, it reveals the objects that one might post to himself and it reveals the fields of life that the energy of the planets flow easily that's why Astrologers claim that their Art is apart from humanistic, important as well.

Many people believe that a psychological analysis of their birth chart can reveal to them their life patterns and this knowledge will help them exercise their free will BUT it's exactly that this psychological analysis of a birth chart that seems problematic in a really definite way.

In the example I brought they posed a really easy, common and legitimate question to 5 different astrologers of a recognized status.A question like the ones that common people pose to astrologer everyday. All of them failed Marrena and since I have spent a lot of time with people they practice astrology I am in the position to know that those 5 astrologers are not idiots who wear purple robes and pointed hats and observe the stars like medieval witches. They failed in the most characteristic way and what you say--that lousy astrologers exist- is not really an argument because you are in the position to know that such experiments have been performed repeatedly with the same results.

I appreciate the time you spent to look at the horoscope in question but it was unnecessary since you knew of what the case was.

Your argument about your system doesn't say much I am afraid. Each astrologer follows his own method and correct me if I am wrong but I have observed that you have a problem in posting an analysis once you miss the time of birth. You see the problem? First there is no such a thing as an accurate time of birth, second in the previous generations the time of birth was not recorded, is astrology useless for all these people ? I am sure that Astrology doesn't claim such a thing!

Also, as a former astrologer allow me to note that strictly astrologically speaking I see a problem in your system as well. Singletons have something to say when they do not make any aspects, also you work too much with houses , given that houses have to do with accurate birth time, I see a problem there too BUT I do not wish to argue on the best astrological method with an astrologer in a skeptic forum.

It's just too much, even for somebody who has Uranus in the first house.

 

[Dr Adequate]

How do we keep the jambos of the forum engaged, and help them to see past the flim-flam and doublespeak of the Interesting Ians, lifegazers, and the like who perpetually post paranormal nonsense here, in a forum dedicated to educating people in critical thinking?

It is not difficult to see past the flim-flam of Interesting Ian... as I have been discovering on another thread. The difficulty is to find people like Marrena who put forward ideas about EVIDENCE and TESTING, and are willing to talk reasonably without ranting and screaming that anyone who disagrees with them is "mindnumbingly stupid". It's only by looking at such a discussion that anyone's going to learn anything on the JREF.

If the forums are going to attract more Ians than Marrenas, we'll have to start inviting guest speakers.

 

[Marrena]

Why who would you trust to give you health advice over a doctor? A Wiccan?
Is it not dctors you are going to to help you examine your propsed diet?

I would trust a great-grandmother.

As I have said at length, doctors are in fact not helping me examine my diet. I have no money to give them, so they are not interested. This among many other things has made me understandably cynical about doctors.

Cleopatra, I am not here to argue about astrology. I came here to test my astrological method by doing the natal horoscopes of skeptics, because skeptics would be honest with me unlike the general population that seems to agree with everything I say. I examined the chart you gave me not to prove anything to you, which of course would be ridiculous since I already knew what he did, but to check for myself. In that case my method worked, but there were enough other cases here with people who gave me specific contradictory feedback that I am convinced my method does not work. I didn't mean to imply other astrologers are idiots in general, just not competent at astrology, in my opinion. Also remember I have a third house Gemini Jupiter singleton which makes me quite overbearing and overconfident in my opinions and conversation

I would think the people attracted to the challenge would fall into three categories--outright charlatans trying to make some money and get some fame, people whose entire world view is intrinsically tied up with their religious views, and people like me who have high dopamine levels. The first category is going to be frustrating because they are always going to try to wriggle out of rigorous testing. The second category is going to be hostile, long-winded and completely impervious to reason because the board threatens their fundamental beliefs which they find necessary to function. The third category, which would be many people who honestly believe they have magic powers, probably wouldn't come here much. First off I would think the vast majority in the Western world would be schizophrenics and drug addicts, so their faculties wouldn't be up for any sort of a logical debate. Those lucky enough to have the genes for it, or who eat a diet high in omega-3 fatty acids, in other words those who have high dopamine naturally might not have the inclination. First off it's easy enough to find people who do believe in magic powers, people willing to give you money without a big argument. Secondly it's almost a moot point, at least from my experience. Having high dopamine is like seeing colors in a black and white world. Of course the natural assumption is that other people who can see colors are seeing the same colors, that color is real. But even knowing full well that the colors are imaginary, you can't help but seeing them anyway. It's involuntary and actually quite nice. If I didn't have the heart of a scientist I wouldn't be here at all. Now I can enjoy myself knowing it's just a trick of my mind.

Actually it has just occurred to me skeptics here might be interested in experiencing the other side of things. I'm not advocating taking up heroin for recreational purposes, but the fish oil thing might be an interesting experiment. People on blood thinning meds or lots of OTC pain relievers shouldn't take fish oil, and if you take enough to get 1600 mg of EPA, you should take an additional 400 IU of Vitamin E. Also the antidepressant Wellbutrin might have similar effects, although of course people shouldn't go on antidepressants just for fun. But people who are on it might notice their woo-woo factor rising. They might also notice other things rising too. *ahem*

 

[Ashles]

Also the antidepressant Wellbutrin might have similar effects, although of course people shouldn't go on antidepressants just for fun.

I have to briefly say NO-ONE should EVER take any form of antidepressant without professional advice and I could get a bit cross with you Marrena for suggesting that.
I have a degree in Experimental Psychology, several friends who are professional councillors and have had friends who have ended up on a dangerous spiral of antidepressant use. Antidepressants are NEVER to be used for anything other than it's intended purpose, obviously nor are any psychiatric drugs.
Stick with the fish oil and vitamins Marrena - you are really not to start recommending playing around with these drugs for any sort of high.
You are making it sound like a fun thing and, trust me, it can turn out not to be.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Uhh, my feed-back post got lost, somehow, sorry. Perhaps that was for the best since it was not very nice. Suffice to say that I was less than impressed with your reading.

Now, Marrena, what is your conclusion from your little test here? As test subjects, I think we are entitled to know. Your readings were consistently on the hit and miss level, and you have also acnowledged that your "method does not work". Does this mean that you now dismiss astrology?

Hans

 

[Marrena]

Yes, I now dismiss astrology. Perhaps I didn't make that clear. Or maybe you just didn't read all the posts in this thread, and I hardly blame you.

I absolutely agree antidepressants should never be taken frivolously, I thought I made that clear in my sentence. In fact with antidepressants taken so casually here in the United States I'm a loud and vociferous proponent of using natural means, like fish oil, exposure to sunlight and regular mild aerobic exercise every day to decrease antidepressant levels and if possible get off of them altogether, under a doctor's supervision of course. A number of women who have gone on my diet have been able to successfully quit Prozac and other antidepressants. Every antidepressant except for Wellbutrin (which also raises dopamine along with serotonin) generally does cause sexual problems, especially in women. There have been a few rigorous studies showing this, although as you can imagine it is not a popular topic with the pharmaceutical industry, antidepressants being one of the top cash cows of the industry. Antidepressants are now being prescribed off-label for men with erectile dysfunction and are also being prescribed for women with PMS. Personally I think the level of American antidepressant use is shocking. Also, Wellbutrin is now commonly prescribed off-label to increase women's libido. That's the reason why I mentioned it.

With the pressure of HMO's to cut costs, it almost a guarantee if you show up at a psychiatrist's office you will be offered an antidepressant prescription.