Astrological fun and games

[Tricky]

In response to the excellent posts by Ashles and Dr. Kitten, I would have to say I mostly agree. I should have posted a cavaet saying "given that there is an astrological effect"... then the reason for it should be investigated.

My point was that if you believe (without good evidence, IMO) that astrology works, you ought to be curious as to why. No astrologers seem to be.

 

[Marrena]

I don't think it's fair to criticise astrologers for not having a unified theory of how astrology works. I do think it's fair to criticise astrologers for not having any evidence that it works. But a "scientific" investigation of astrology, at this point, should not be concentrating on mechanisms ("In fact, it is almost intuitive that if astrology worked, it would have something to do with gravity" isn't science, but unfounded and unsupported assertion), but on finding evidence regarding what sort of predictions can and cannot be made (reliably).

Yes, thank you. You said it much better than I could, that is the point I've been trying to get across. I came here to test whether astrology works (it doesn't) not to get bogged down in why it works.

 

[drkitten]

In response to the excellent posts by Ashles and Dr. Kitten, I would have to say I mostly agree. I should have posted a cavaet saying "given that there is an astrological effect"... then the reason for it should be investigated.

There is no reason for this. There are a lot of bird watchers who are content to know that birds fly, without knowing or caring exactly why.

More generally, I could be a darned good physician while being a lousy biologist. Ever see Awakenings? If I think that a drug will help someone get better, I can use the drug in a clinical setting (probably off-list) without worrying about why or how it helps. If my patients get better by watching sitcoms on TV, I will tell them to watch sitcoms. Sure, maybe there's something funky and psychological going on, or maybe they just need physical inactivity in order to heal. But if they get better,.... that's my job done.

 

[Tricky]

There is no reason for this. There are a lot of bird watchers who are content to know that birds fly, without knowing or caring exactly why.

Perhaps, but then birdwatchers concern themselves with only a limited field of ornithology. Most serious birdwatchers do in fact try to find out why the birds come when and where they do, as well as why their colors are different at different times of the year.

However, it shold be also noted that most birdwatchers are amateurs. A professional ornithologist would be very poor at his field if he didn't care how or or why birds fly. A professional astrologist would be very poor at his field if he didn't care how or why astrology "worked".

As much as I can appreciate the simple beauty of a thing, I simply cannot agree with Walt Whitman on this point.

 

[Dr Adequate]

We've been so much help in testing astrology, I was wondering --- when you've got a large sample of women who've taken your orgasmic diet, and you need some really rigorous testing doing...

Well, you know who to call. Let's do some hard science.

 

[Piscivore]

Piscivore: Are you sure? You do in fact have an Aries 12th house Saturn singleton. Very strong indication of at some point going to jail for violent crime. Quite tight quincunx between your Saturn and lucky Jupiter. Quincunx is angle of obsession. Lucky Jupiter might keep you out of jail, but still very strong indication of violent crime. Jupiter is in your fifth house, may have something to do with romance or children. You are charming as hell, being a double Sagittarius, and a natural alpha male, Aries rising. You've got a loaded 8th house, the sex house. Your sun, moon, Neptune and Mercury are all there. Women are attracted to you because you are dangerous, and did I mention charming? You have a phobia of not being in charge, in control, and that's where you get dangerous. Chiron in Pisces in the 12th house, also reinforcing the idea of hidden mental unbalance.

Mars is your chart ruler, career very important; you are very ambitious and probably successful simply from your focus.

Sorry. I've got a sucky chart like this too--I've got a loaded 12th house. So there is free will, etc., it's not predestination.

No apologies necessary, "Charming, sexy, dangerous" is pretty cool, and this is the first time anyone's ever accused me of being an "alpha male"

"Hidden mental imbalance" is probably right though. As is the "control freak" bit.

I wish I was focused.

 

[Dr Adequate]

A professional astrologist would be very poor at his field if he didn't care how or why astrology "worked".

You might as well say that plumbers would be very poor in their field if they didn't know hydrodynamics, or that electricians need to know quantum electrodynamics, or that doctors need to know molecular biology, or be "very poor at their field".

Predictive astrology, if it worked, would just be a technique comprable to these. No professional astrologer would need to understand the underlying theory, which would be (like all other underlying theories) weird, difficult, abstract, and involving really high-level maths.

(As with electricians and quantum theory).

 

[Ashles]

You might as well say that plumbers would be very poor in their field if they didn't know hydrodynamics,

True, but, to be fair, plumbers would understand the concepts of pressure and water flow, and would understand a certain level of hydrodynamics, even if they might not be able to outline the equations and maths behind it.

Also plumbers would not claim that how plumbing worked was because it is 'science from the future' if they didn't understand it, because they know that all aspects of plumbing conform to current known physical laws.
(With the possible exception of why they think 7:30 in the evening is the same as "between 3 and 4 o'clock in the afternoon" which is when they originally said they were going to come.)

 

[Tricky]

You might as well say that plumbers would be very poor in their field if they didn't know hydrodynamics, or that electricians need to know quantum electrodynamics, or that doctors need to know molecular biology, or be "very poor at their field".

Most doctors do know something about molecular biology (it is required for most medical degrees). But all those people in the fields must at least be aware that there is in fact some hard science behind what they do, and if they applied themselves, they could find out. I am guessing, as a doctor, that you are aware of the giants on whose shoulders you stand, even if you could not, without a lot of work, replicate their knowledge.

But according to Marks, the hard science that backs his profession is not yet discovered. He could not, by research and study, find where others have shown the mechanics of how astrology works. Neither does he seem to regard that as a drawback.

.

Predictive astrology, if it worked, would just be a technique comprable to these. No professional astrologer would need to understand the underlying theory, which would be (like all other underlying theories) weird, difficult, abstract, and involving really high-level maths.

(As with electricians and quantum theory).

But electricians could learn the quantum theory. The information is available. The same is not true for astrologers.

 

[Dr Adequate]

I didn't know doctors in general learnt molecular biology. OK, poor example.

(N.B: I am not a doctor. I have a doctorate. That's different.)

There have been methods in science, such as spectrography, which scientists accepted as working, on an empirical basis, before they knew HOW it worked. Many medicines --- asprin, penicillin --- have been found to work and prescibed before anyone knew how. Edison got by quite well without quantum theory. Newton explicitly said that he couldn't thing of a mechanism for gravity ("non fingo hypothesi") but this didn't at all deprive his theory of practical importance. Astronomers could do the calculations without wondering about the WHY of gravity, and in fact to this day they leave that to the physicists. The does not make them poor in their field. But "the information is not available". It is still, as Ashles said, "science from the future".

Overemphasis on explanation, rather than just proof, is one of the weaknesses of sceptics, as James Randi has said often enough himself. You find the effect first. Then you try to explain it. Quantum physicists are still scratching their heads about gravity. Anyone seen a graviton lately?

I think the word Marrena wants is "melancholic".

 

[drkitten]

Most doctors do know something about molecular biology (it is required for most medical degrees). But all those people in the fields must at least be aware that there is in fact some hard science behind what they do, and if they applied themselves, they could find out.

Yes, but when they do something that works, and there is no hard science behind it, they're still quite willing to do it. The discovery of many drugs (I believe digitalis was among the first) shows their willingness to apply effective remedies, even when there is no "hard science" to explain why the remedies are effective. The doctor credited with the discovery of digitalis was quite happy relying upon (and even publishing) the results of clinical trials. The biochemical argle-bargle wasn't sorted out for another twenty to fifty years.

There's a similar story regarding the use of Laplace transforms and frequency domain as an analytic tool in electrical engineering and circuit analysis. It worked, so engineers used it, and it was even taught in schools for about fifty years before Heaviside took the math apart and proved why it worked.

It's not necessary, even in "hard science" fields, for practitioners to understand why something works, as long as they're confident that it does.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Ditto renormalisation in quantum mechanics. It took decades before anyone proved the math consistent.

 

[Mercutio]

As to all the complicated permutations of astrology, yes, of course. That's why many of the automatically generated natal horoscopes, say at astrology.com are so contradictory. They don't weight anything; nothing is ranked according to importance. However I believe this is easily rectified, the software just hasn't achieved that sophistication. There are well-defined rules for ranking importance of natal chart elements--tightness of angles, big formations like grand trines, singletons by element and location, total lack of an element, and then the standard--sun, moon, rising sign. For example, the Charles Manson chart that was given to me--the obvious thing about that chart was the 12th house Aries Uranus singleton. Now yes, the nuances of his personality were expressed in the rest of his chart, but that singleton is the most obvious thing. If you looked at his sun sign it wouldn't say anything about him being a serial killer--obviously not, that would make one-twelfth of the population serial killers.

This is exactly what I spoke of before. It is a built-in excuse, making any prediction non-falsifiable. If a reading does not fit, it is simply because we have not looked at a complex enough level. If we looked at the whole chart, of course, we would see that it works. Ah, but the problem is that when we add the additional variables into the equation, we have increased the complexity of our model beyond that which we can test with our current population (and I mean that literally--the total population of the planet is not sufficient to fill out all the cells of the statistical matrix generated by the more complex model).

So...if Astrology works enough to be detected, it must show up at a simpler level (after all, our human perception is not as sensitive as our statistical models--if we have seen astrology work with our own eyes, it must show up in a statistical analysis). If it requires the more complex model in order to be accurate, then it is too complex to have been perceived with the number of people examined thus far. Those are, quite simply, the choices.

I have already had my horoscope read on this forum--let's see how your reading stacks up (I have a printout, but it is at my office, so I will compare later). Male, July 6 1961, Urbana Ohio 10AM.

 

[Marrena]

That isn't what I said at all. I said clearly according to astrological principles, Charles Manson's Uranus is the most obvious thing on his chart, outweighing the sun sign. You don't have to look at more complexity. The most obvious thing on a person's chart is going to be the most obvious thing about their life. Period.

The wiggle room isn't in picking the planet or angle that sticks out, it's in the interpretation of that planet or angle. Continuing with the example of Charles Manson, how to interpret Uranus in Aries in the 12th house? That could come out a lot of ways, and should come out a lot of ways, giving a person free will, etc. I will list the three things and their attributes, and you can see the possibilities.

Uranus--planet of eccentricity, revolution, social justice, brotherhood, the new and modern. Also freaky sex practices, especially bisexuality and swinging (I know, there's a joke in there somewhere)

Aries--sign of aggression, fire, violence, leadership, drive, energy and chivalry

12th house--this is really a catch-all, the hardest house to interpret--dreams, psychic powers, spirituality, imprisonment, prisons, hospitals, institutions, insanity, the subconscious.

So it was an educated guess saying unpredictably violent. I could also have said, and according to astrology he could also have been a leader in some kind of spiritual movement working for social justice. So in that sense astrology is almost so vague as to be useless.

 

[troy jones]

So it was an educated guess saying unpredictably violent. I could also have said, and according to astrology he could also have been a leader in some kind of spiritual movement working for social justice. So in that sense astrology is almost so vague as to be useless.

Almost?

 

[Marrena]

All right, one more chart, since you asked so nicely. *cough*

I'm laughing. Okay, now your chart may not be exactly accurate because you probably weren't born at exactly 10:00 am. But using that as the time, you happen to have two singletons in your chart. These are the most obvious things about your chart, and should be the most obvious things about your life. You have a Uranus singleton in your 12th house. Fortunately for you it is not in Aries, it's in Leo. You also have a Jupiter singleton in Aquarius in your fifth house. This is generally good to have a Jupiter singleton, but unfortunately for you it is making an extremely tight quincunx, angle of obsession, with your 12th house Mars and a looser quincunx with your 12th house Pluto. Your 12th house Mars and Pluto are in Virgo so that cools things down a bit, but that's a very uncomfortable chart to have.

A chart like this would generally indicate a lot time spent with mental health professionals, unless you have some sort of creative outlet. Although fun at parties, I would say. Jupiter is a big fun planet and you've got it in your fifth house, house of fun and games, romance and children. However, this would get you in trouble with your emotional needs, you've got a square between your Jupiter and Moon.

 

[Soapy Sam]

I find it interesting that while most posters here routinely conceal their birthdates and their gender- when Marrena begins reading their stars , they fall over each other to get in line.

This is a very personable and charming lady (assuming she is not disguising (his) gender and that the avatar photo is of herself. ) She is polite, friendly and responsive, apparently highly intelligent, articulate and seemingly willing to learn. In short, so unlike the run of the mill "Woo-woo" as to be quite disturbing.

Add to that a hint of earthy sexuality and she would appear to have most of the forum eating out of her hand already. (I confess myself quite fascinated).

I am astounded for instance, not just that jj has been practically purring, but that he appears to have missed her confusion of Voltaire with Alessandro Volta.

I must assume therefore that she is truly a witch, possessed of mesmeric powers, here to lure us all to the dark side.

 

[Mercutio]

All right, one more chart, since you asked so nicely. *cough*

I'm laughing. Okay, now your chart may not be exactly accurate because you probably weren't born at exactly 10:00 am. But using that as the time, you happen to have two singletons in your chart. These are the most obvious things about your chart, and should be the most obvious things about your life. You have a Uranus singleton in your 12th house. Fortunately for you it is not in Aries, it's in Leo. You also have a Jupiter singleton in Aquarius in your fifth house. This is generally good to have a Jupiter singleton, but unfortunately for you it is making an extremely tight quincunx, angle of obsession, with your 12th house Mars and a looser quincunx with your 12th house Pluto. Your 12th house Mars and Pluto are in Virgo so that cools things down a bit, but that's a very uncomfortable chart to have.

A chart like this would generally indicate a lot time spent with mental health professionals, unless you have some sort of creative outlet. Although fun at parties, I would say. Jupiter is a big fun planet and you've got it in your fifth house, house of fun and games, romance and children. However, this would get you in trouble with your emotional needs, you've got a square between your Jupiter and Moon.

Um...which person is this? I thought you had multiple requests (If I am wrong, I apologize). If it is me...Whether or not I was born exactly at 10 AM, that is the time I gave for my other reading...so at least the two of you should say the same thing.

 

[Marrena]

I did not confuse Voltaire with Volta! I confused Voltaire with his mistress, Emilie du Chatelet, and it was fire instead of electricity. Here

http://www.hypatiamaze.org/emilie/chatelet.html

How embarrassing, overlooking the woman.

My point was at the time it was all the rage for noblemen to engage in those sorts of experiments just for fun.

As for me being who I say I am, what do you want me to do, take a picture of myself with tomorrow's newspaper?

But thank you for the compliments, I truly do appreciate them.

 

[Marrena]

Hmm, let me guess, you're going to tell me dreamers often lie. That horoscope was yours, Mercutio. If you have a printout of another horoscope, it probably isn't an accurate one. Computer-generated horoscopes generally don't have sophisticated enough software to focus on the singletons--they just print out every dang thing on the chart without telling you what is important. Pretty useless unless you have a perfectly balanced chart, in which case the classic ranking of Sun, Moon, rising sign should apply. Hopefully the software will get more sophisticated, the algorithm isn't that tricky, even for the location singletons.