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Astrological fun and games

Birth is at the moment the baby draws the first breath. It's very well-defined. Someone really into astrology could technically manipulate this by scheduling a C-section at the most optimal time.

Although there again, according to astrology a "good" chart doesn't necessarily guarantee a good life. A grand trine makes things come easy, but that can turn a person to gambling and con artistry, while a struggle with a T-square can change the world.

According to astrologers there is a way to manipulate astrology at the solar return (when the sun returns to the place it was at one's birth--starts out at the birthday but moves through the decades). Can't change the planetary configuration, but you can change the house system and rising sign by travelling through time zones. Beginnings are important to astrology, and the solar return is the beginning of a person's new year. Basically, the chart at the instant of the return determines in some ways what the coming year will bring.

At this point I want to point out I'm not arguing for astrology's veracity since I failed to prove it. But this is what true astrologers believe, as opposed to the blatant quackery published in newspapers and magazines based on sun sign alone.

As for space travel, transits are determined by planets interacting with the natal chart, including the birthplace. So that wouldn't be affected. But a baby born in space or on the moon, yes that would be very, very different. Obviously the other planetary influences wouldn't be affected, but the moon's influence is huge, determining the emotional bent. Astrology wouldn't know what to do with something like that except observe, just as is done with a new planet.
 
Piscivore's chart from another thread:

Holy moley, you have the same birthdate as my ex-husband! This should be interesting.

Hmm, but you have a different rising sign. Yours is a case where exact time is pretty crucial. You have a Saturn singleton in Aries right on your ascendant, which means that could be in the first house, or it could be in the 12th house. *cough* Very very different chart depending on exactly where that planet falls. In any case I'm going to be extremely polite with you.
 
Marrena, I would be interested to see how you feel about these issues on astrology.
  • What is it about the date/time of birth that is so special. After all, the time of birth and period of gestation can vary widely. In fact, in many cases labor is induced, meaning that the person is born at a time that is different from when they "should have been born". Could your personality traits be that strongly influenced by when the doctor's golf game finished?
  • What is it about birth itself that fixes the traits? It cannot be passage through the birth canal, or else ceasarian section babies would have no horoscope. Is it the time when they take their first breath? That wouldn't make much sense, because they are getting oxygen all along from their mother.
  • What is it about the stars and planets that influences people? Is it gravity? Radiation? I've heard it said that the celestial objects do not influence the traits at all, but rather the planets are influenced by the same things that influence the traits. However, this still suggests some sort of force or energy.
  • Since we are finding out that more and more of our human traits are determined, or at least influenced by genetics, wouldn't it make sense that your astrological sign was determined at the point of conception, rather than birth? That, after all, is when your genetic makeup is set. Are all astrological calculations nine months off?

These are serious questions. I actually studied astrology as a hobby when I was in college, and it was the inability of astrologers to answer these questions that eventually made me skeptical. How do you feel about them?
 
I never mentioned gravity. I'm darn sure it has nothing to do with gravity.

Theorizing about the possible mechanics or explanations for how astrology works before determining IF it works might be putting the cart before the horse, anyway.

And that seems to be what you are trying to do - determine if it works. You claim to be trying to decide whether astrology is hokum or not. I think you are going about it the wrong way. What I see you doing is attempting to prove that astrology works. You haven't had a very high hit rate and you are discounting or finding excuses for the misses. Regardless of your stated intentions you seem more interested in honing your skill than testing anything though perhaps not intentionally. That is why objective double-blind testing must be used to investigate whether there is really any correlation. Then you can theorize about causation (if you really want to).

You might find this document interesting. I'm not presenting this link as proof or evidence of anything. I just think you might be interested in reading about some people who made the effort to do some objective, controlled tests to see if astrology really lives up to astrologers' claims and you may want to change your method.
 
No, I already said it doesn't work, or at least I'm not good enough at it to do so. I've conceded the argument. I agree with you, show it works before you quibble about how.

In response to that link, here's a link from an astrologer out to answer the most common skeptics' questions:

http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/skeptics.htm

And here's the research he's doing to prove astrology has basis in scientific fact

Now I look like a fool, astrologyresearchjournal.org is down. Here's the abstract, which of course proves nothing:

"Case Study of Murderers and their astrological connections.
This is Two Part Article.

In Part One of this study, the horoscopes of sixty serial killers and sixty single murderers were examined to see if the angular separation between planets and between planets and midpoints of various planetary pairs occurred with a frequency greater than one would expect from random chance alone.

In Part Two a closer analysis of the Serial Killer Horoscope. Combinations of factors were found that had a very small probability if occurring by random chance. Results verified with Control Groups."

I would also like to point out that my view of astrology has been that it is not a determinant of fate. I have believed it has more influence than genetics or environment, but ultimately the individual does have free will.
 
Marrena said:
I would also like to point out that my view of astrology has been that it is not a determinant of fate. I have believed it has more influence than genetics or environment, but ultimately the individual does have free will.
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Not according to studies like this one

Note this quote in particular:

In 2002, Krueger co-authored a study in the Journal of Personality (Vol. 70, No. 5) that looked at the personality traits of 128 twin pairs who had been raised apart. The study found that the identical twins were more similar in personality traits than the fraternal twins.
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The study doesn't seem to have compared fraternal twins with pairs of siblings born at different times, which would be the best test of this issue. Genetic and environmental factors would be constant for such comparisons, so if date/time/place of birth had any effect whatsoever you would certainly expect fraternal twins to be significantly more alike than siblings with different birthdates raised in the same family. Does anyone know of such a study?
 
No, that supports what I'm saying, I think. I believe that like genetics, astrology influences personality, but just because a person has a particular personality doesn't mean that they are going to grow up to become an axe murderer or President or whatever. That's determined by ultimately by the interaction of personality and free will and chance too.

For example, I wasn't too much dissuaded by misses in my job predictions for people. Many people choose jobs they aren't suited for. But I was dissuaded by a clear contradiction in basic personality. According to astrological principles, a person with no fire signs in their chart has very low physical energy. This personality trait prediction was flatly contradicted in this thread.
 
Marrena said:
No, that supports what I'm saying, I think. I believe that like genetics, astrology influences personality, but just because a person has a particular personality doesn't mean that they are going to grow up to become an axe murderer or President or whatever. That's determined by ultimately by the interaction of personality and free will and chance too.

For example, I wasn't too much dissuaded by misses in my job predictions for people. Many people choose jobs they aren't suited for. But I was dissuaded by a clear contradiction in basic personality. According to astrological principles, a person with no fire signs in their chart has very low physical energy. This personality trait prediction was flatly contradicted in this thread.
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So if I understand you everyone starts off with preset personality traits. However these can be affected by chance, circumstance and external factors which mean that by the time you do a reading that characteristic may not be present.

However you would expect that when considered as a large group then people were born with (astrologically) a certain characteristic to the fore would show that characteristic more that a similar group who astrologically scored lowly in it.

That they don’t suggests that chance, circumstance and external factors are so much the dominant deciders that birth sign is irrelevant.
 
I'm not sure they don't; I don't think that's been examined. Has it?

I don't know whether I screwed up here because astrology doesn't work or because I'm not very good at it. A study looking at twins wouldn't be definitive because too much could contribute to similar personalities--similar genes, environment, etc. A study looking at personality traits of children born within five minutes of each other at the same hospital would absolutely determine the ultimate veracity of astrology. On the other hand would be very expensive and time-consuming; not a snowball's chance in hell of getting funding for that.

Easier proof would be what Bob Marks is trying to do--tease out characteristics of serial killers using birth certificates with times, and then use that as a predictive device. Not that everyone who has a serial killer chart becomes a serial killer thank goodness, just like not everyone who has the personality traits of a serial killer becomes one, but it should be detectable in the chart.
 
Marrena said:
Operaider, going to try to do these in summary since there are four.
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I'd just like to go on record as thanking Marrena and Operaider for this little experiment.

Marenna, you're getting swamped, and I haven't been able to get the set of birthdates I promised you together yet. If you want to back out and go do something fun, I understand entirely. Thanks for giving the demonstration, though.
 
It's up to you, although I'm folding on being able to prove anything astrological.
 
It's been great to see believers and sceptics playing nicely together, talking rationally, thinking up tests... if only there was more of this.
 
I read the thing at the time, and it seemed pretty straightforward. He hadn't reached a conclusion yet, because he doesn't have a big enough N, I think only has sixty with verified birth certificates. I do remember 12th house issues factored in, which would certainly make sense from an astrological perspective. It was certainly a statistical approach.
 
Once again I'd like to thank you for all the time you've put in. I hope we see you on the site more often. I will say that you seem to be fairly open to accepting the possiblity that you might be wrong. Most believers in the paranormal on this site seem to deny the possibility of being wrong at every turn. Not to say that you are wrong, you just don't seem to think your infalable like some. Because of this,I think many of the skeptics on this site have enjoyed these debates. Atleast more than they would with someone who is more ... lets say stubborn ...*cough*Ian*cough* *cough*.
The reason I believe it is because I started reading my horoscope at astro.com the day after, and it fit every day, especially obvious things like moon square moon--those were days I'd get in the most arguments. So I started reading it ahead of time and my life runs smoother now. I'm very practical
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The only problem I see with this is that when you read the horoscope the day after, you might reflect back only on the aspects of that day that reflect what is said in the horoscope. Likewise, when you do your horoscope a day in advance you might only look for things that reflect the horoscope. Plus you get the added advantage of directing that day towards what your horoscope says. Which might be fine if already believe in the horoscopes and want to know what to expect. But if you are looking to test them, it brings about some problems.

Example: lets assume your horoscope says that "you will meet the love of your life tonight" or something to that effect. Lets say you go the whole day excited thinking about who it might be. Then around 9:00 pm you and some friends hit the bars. While there a man walks up and offers to buy you a drink. Thinking "this could be him!!!" you accept and begin talking to him. Where as if you hadn't known your horoscope in advance you might have turned the guy down for whatever reason. You might have said "I'm sorry, but no thank you. I'd like to spend some time with my friends tonight."

A way you might test it is. Do up a friends horoscope every day. Don't show it them. At the end of the day have your friend write in a diary the type of day they've had. Have a third party compare the two, and rate the prediction.
 
Let me distinguish between something absolutely true and something I find handy and enjoy. For example watching a movie a person isn't actually witnessing true live events, but much of what happens in their brain biochemically reacts as if they were. Or for that matter, a magic show. People enjoy fantasy. I'm not going to give up astrology or Wicca even if I am convinced they are wrong, because the practice of following them both has very beneficial practical effects for me. I mean, of course Wicca, at least modern-day Wicca, makes no pretense to be actually true. You get to pick the deities of your choice to worship, from all over the world, you can even make up your own. There's a coven of housecat-worshipping Bast wiccans. Wicca's very Jungian. But it's also very restful, involving lots of meditation and focus, and erm, sex magick which can be pretty fun. It's along the lines of using a lucky rabbit's foot to improve your golf game--just on a grand scale. With some actual true stuff thrown in--for example damiana is in a lot of wiccan female love potions, and it actually does work in some cases as an aphrodisiac for women (where nervousness and mental inhibitions are involved). People talk about the placebo effect as something to be avoided, but I say bring it on, at least personally.

Now I'm pretty sure astrology falls in the same boat. Much faster to come here to test than going through lengthy horoscope journals--got my answer in a day. Thank you everyone. Still I'll keep doing it for practical reasons, just won't believe in it underneath anymore than I believe that a movie that cheers me up or gives me a good cathartic cry is a factual documentary.
 
Marrena
Could I please have my chart read ?
30th June 1990 12:19 pm , Bellshill
 
Marrena said:
It's up to you, although I'm folding on being able to prove anything astrological.
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I really enjoyed this thread. I kinda feel bumbed that my reading was the party-pooper. Whereas I have never been a believer in astrology I think Dr. Adequate said it best

Dr. Adequate said:
It's been great to see believers and sceptics playing nicely together, talking rationally, thinking up tests... if only there was more of this.
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JPK
edited to fix tag
 
Marrena said:
the practice of following them both has very beneficial practical effects for me.
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I'd like to ask a question about that. I was wondering: would it even matter if this sort of astrology (character diagnosis) worked?

I mean, it's common ground with us that any effect must be small, that there are a lot of boss shots, etc. However, we've got a much, much better way of finding out about people, which is to ask them about themselves. This information is a lot more abundant and accurate, and is in fact the yardstick we used to calibrate astrology by.

So the only way this style of astrology could be useful, even if it worked, is if you knew someone who you couldn't trust to reveal their true character but who you did trust to tell you their exact time and place of birth. In all other cases, you can ignore whether they have Mercury in Pisces and just rely on the magic of communication and empathy, which seems to work quite well.

It's a bit like Rhine card telepathy --- even if there is a thin trickle of information coming through, I have a telephone and email, which are better. Only a parapsychologist would care.
 
If people are so good at forthrightly telling their own personality traits, why is it that every psychological system I'm aware of relies on questionnaires to reach the same result? They don't ask, do you like being around people to find out if the person is an extrovert, no they ask fourteen questions about this and that, obliquely glancing at the topic.

Also, just from a gender point of view--"Oh, yeah baby, I love you, I love you so much, I'll always love you. And I'm totally monogamous, that's just the kind of guy I am, now can we have sex?" A woman hears that often enough and sees the results, the longing for a foolproof tricky way to truly determine a man's character, by something he won't suspect, something innocuous like birthtime--it's a fascinating and gripping topic for most women, no matter how otherwise hardboiled.
 
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