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Assange will be extradited. European Arrest Warrant in the Dock

What on earth could he be extradited to the USA for anyway?

There was a lot of windbaggery around the time Wikileaks leaked the diplomatic cables and the Afghan War Diary that he should be charged with espionage, treason or just generally being un-American and executed. That or just murdered by the CIA as an enemy of the state.

I think we can chalk all or almost all of that up to chickenhawk posturing, but as I understand it whether Assange should be treated as a journalist or a spy is not so legally clear-cut that a case couldn't be made if the USA was really determined to make one.

As recent history has shown, in the USA all it takes is an "opinion" from the AG to redefine torture so as to allow US citizens to ignore international human rights treaties with impunity. If the US government really wanted to drag Assange over the coals I'm sure they could jack up an "opinion" allowing them to do it with a fig leaf of legality, so if I was Assange I would at the very least have some concern about such possibilities.
 
Says it all in the title. Seeing as we already have about 3 million wikileaks threads how about one on the European arrest warrants. Good idea to speed up extradition or an abuse of national legal frameworks....?

Discuss :)



http://m.guardian.co.uk/ms/p/gnm/op...ge-extradition-sweden-verdict&cat=top-stories

Back to the OP. I think that determining somethings worth based on quite probably false perceptions in a single case is silly. The current court has upheld the EAW and two Swedish courts upheald the Swedish one, so the indications in this case are that everything is above board. The defence tried to challange the EAW, in fact that was the main backbone of their case, and their own witnesses shred that by admitting under cross that there was nothing wrong with it, and in one case, that he'd have done exactly that same thing when he was a prosecutor in Sweden.

I think that from the evidence, there is nothing wrong with the current EAW system. It actually reminds me of the whole "supressed evidence" issue we had here after a particular case where those wanting to change the supression laws couldn't apparrently understand that if information that didn't have anything to do with the current case would likely change the jury's decision, then it is prejudical and shouldn't be allowed, and if it wouldn't change the jury's decision, then it's pointless introducing it.
 
It is certainly the most extraordinary case I have ever seen, I can't see, if Assange had not annoyed powerful interests, that such minor offences (if offences they were and he wasn't deliberately targeted) would have resulted in such herculean judicial efforts.

To me, "minor offences" is stuff like running away from a fender-bender, petty theft, jaywalking, public disturbance or driving an overloaded truck. Terms not brought to mind by "minor offences" are "sexual assault" and "rape".

Now, one can argue whether Assange actually did what is alleged he did and one can argue whether those alleged acts should fall under the legal umbrellas of "rape" and "sexual assault", but one can not honestly argue that rape and sexual assault are "minor offences."
 
In the case of swenden not really an issue. It's countries like greece where the justic system really is that much worse that are the real problem.

Short aside:
I invite you to look up the sentences following the 2001 EU Summit riots. The Swedish legal system really isn't that much better than the Greek. There were plenty of convictions on not-even-circumstantial-and-in-the-face-of-actual-evidence, with unusually harsh sentences to boot.

One particularly jarring example is the man, native of Gothenburg who was convicted for "våldsamt upplopp" (app: "Violent rioting") and for attacking a police officer on the sole basis on having a sweater of similar design as a - masked and hooded - person who was involved in brawling with the police and then managing to get away in the crowd. The actual culprit was of different build and the sweater in question is the one fans of a certain football team wear to show they are part of the cheer club. I.e. there are thousands of them around Gothenburg.

Top this off with the fact that this man was actually caught on CCTV footage, at a tram stop on his way home, in a completely different part of town at the time of the scuffle (which was in turn also caught on camera, simultaneously in the other side of town). The CCTV footage was available for the preliminary investigation but the investigators decided it wasn't important and when the defence requested it for evidence, it had gone missing. The footage of the scuffle, on the other hand, was available and it very clearly showed someone wearing the same shirt, but very obviously a couple of sizes smaller than the one the police seized when they arrested your man.

Naturally, he was convicted and he also got an unusually long prison sentence. In fact all of the sentences handed out were well beyond common practice for similar crimes and very flimsy evidence was accepted. Actually reading the protocols from the trials there were plenty of cases where the evidence simply didn't hold up, but convictions were still handed out.

There's plenty more that stinks. But if you start reading investigations and convictions you could very easily get a feeling that the best bet to get off is to be guilty as hell. Because innocent people tend to try to prove their innocence, which pisses the courts off, but guilty people simply deny everything and wait out the system.

I still can't make heads or tails of the Assange case - it's all gibbrish to me - but I do not have much, if any, trust in the Swedish legal system. Particularly the first instance (Tingsrätten) seems to get it wrong more often than right. As the "Nämndemän" are neither a jury of peers, nor legal professionals, but usually the local moral majority and happy amateurs who are more concerned with an eyebrow piercing than evidence, looking wrong may very well put your ass in jail.

I'm not defending the Greek legal system (nor condemning it, because I know very little about it) but I'd be hard pressed to trust the Swedish any more than the Greek as long as they insist on upholding all the rulings after the 2001 riots.

/ Derail.
 
Under western legal systems the police can still interrogate a suspect. Ny initially wanted Assange so that she could get his side of the story and find out what had happened based on what he said and what the women had told her. Ny has stated that based on the evidence that she currently has, she would indite him, but depending on what he has to say, that may change.

Ah, Phantom Wolf and his suddenly keen interest in protecting a woman's right to say no....How admirable.

Under Commonwealth and American systems there is a right to remain silent. Assange - since his offers of remote interviewing or answering questions via a lawyer were turned down - can be presumed by his refusal to return to Sweden at the click of some prosecutor's fingers to be invoking his right to silence.

If Ny has enough evidence to charge him, she should proceed and then request extradition. Surely if Assange was extradited for questioning and all changes were then dropped, everybody would see this as outrageous harassment and abuse of process? [make that everybody except the staunch feminist Phantom Wolf]

What concerns me is not that in the long run I have any belief Assange will be found guilty.....can anyone really imagine Complaint A and Complaint B rocking up in court and being available for cross-examination? Or am I the only one whose imagination has failed here?

What concerns me is using legal processes to harass individuals. Especially in a way that will make it that little bit harder for genuine victims of rape and sexual assault to come forward and be believed.

The Swedes and these two complainants are urinating in the well for genuine victims of sexual assault.
 
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Ah, Phantom Wolf and his suddenly keen interest in protecting a woman's right to say no....How admirable.

LGR, you have been on this forum for less than a year, learn before opening your mouth, you might not make such a jackass of yourself if you do.

Under Commonwealth and American systems there is a right to remain silent. Assange - since his offers of remote interviewing or answering questions via a lawyer were turned down - can be presumed by his refusal to return to Sweden at the click of some prosecutor's fingers to be invoking his right to silence.

What Commonwealth or American system allows a suspect to refuse to attend the police station for interrogation? If Assange wants to demonstrate a right to refuse to speak, he can do what every other suspect does under interrogation, go to the police station, sit there, and keep his mouth shut.

If Ny has enough evidence to charge him, she should proceed and then request extradition. Surely if Assange was extradited for questioning and all changes were then dropped, everybody would see this as outrageous harassment and abuse of process? [make that everybody except the staunch feminist Phantom Wolf]

He hasn't been charged so there would be nothing to drop. If he is extradited, interrogated and then let go without charge, then it means that his answers were enough to convince the prosecutor to not charge him. Assange brought this all on himself. If he had made sure his lawyer knew where he was, he could have sorted it all out on the 28th of Sept. If he'd been willing to go back to Sweden on the 6th Oct when he was supposed to return for a speech, and done it then, it'd have been over and done with by now. Instead he dreamed up a cocktail of conspriacies and then started to refuse to co-operate unless it was on his terms. How many Western Legal systems allow the suspect to make the rules on how things happen?

What concerns me is not that in the long run I have any belief Assange will be found guilty.....can anyone really imagine Complaint A and Complaint B rocking up in court and being available for cross-examination? Or am I the only one whose imagination has failed here?

What concerns me is using legal processes to harass individuals. Especially in a way that will make it that little bit harder for genuine victims of rape and sexual assault to come forward and be believed.

The Swedes and these two complainants are urinating in the well for genuine victims of sexual assault.

What concerns me is that we don't actually know that this really is a case of using the law to harass someone. What also concerns me is that the rules of decorum on how cases are run have been thrown out the window, almost from the start. People have used the internet to "leak" susposed parts of the case against him, turn up everything they can on the alleged victims, including creating lies and slander about them. The very fact there there is so much misinformation and claims that are just plain wrong make it very hard to determine any truth.

What concerns me is that the internet lynch mob will believe that they have the right to continue to try and replace the justice system instead of letting it do its job and sort out the truth. In the end instead of helping clarify things, the internet lynch mob have muddled the waters so badly and it'll be hard to see real justice done in this case no matter what the truth of it all was.

What concerns me is that the next real victim of someone that gets turned into a folk hero will be treated to the same guantlet of the mob and instead of letting the truth come out in the proper way, that victim is going to be ripped apart in the blogsphere based on poor evidence and lies, and that more people are going to end up victims because bed people can't be dealt with just because they are popular on the internet. That's what concerns me, and if you are truely concerned with the rights of sexual abuse victims, it should concern you too.
 
Phantom Wolf, you are solidly lodged up the posterior of the defence establishment and aren't the slightest bit concerned with rights of sexual assault victims.

But your hypocrisy is entertaining.

This is a situation where I wonder if appealing to the vanity of British judges and running a habeas corpus application against the warrent.
Assange can be presumed to asserting his right to silence - after previously answering questions when he was in Sweden. So its not like he has provided opportunities to be questioned - now he is simply asking bring the charge on.

Habeas corpus says someone can not be held in prison without charge. Given Swedish authorities have had the opportunity to question Assange once and have collected all other evidence they can, if there is no charge now there should be no extradition.

The appeal to judicial vanity would revolve around that every judge secretly fancies him or herself standing up for the rights of the individual on some point of judicial principle, to write themselves into the textbooks. Making some over-blown rhetorical appeal based on ancient legal traditions - they would lap it up like a kitten laps up milk.

Without filing a charge it looks like legal harassment and that is exactly what these legal traditions are supposed to protect against.
 
....snip...

I think that from the evidence, there is nothing wrong with the current EAW system. It actually reminds me of the whole "supressed evidence" issue we had here after a particular case where those wanting to change the supression laws couldn't apparrently understand that if information that didn't have anything to do with the current case would likely change the jury's decision, then it is prejudical and shouldn't be allowed, and if it wouldn't change the jury's decision, then it's pointless introducing it.

It's strange but I'm more supportive of EAWs than I was before this case. I had vague worries - influenced by how the media reported them - since this case I've learnt the actual facts about them and whilst I am sure they are not perfect they seem on the whole to do the job they were designed to do. And this case is a good example of what they should be used for.
 
I'm not defending the Greek legal system (nor condemning it, because I know very little about it) but I'd be hard pressed to trust the Swedish any more than the Greek as long as they insist on upholding all the rulings after the 2001 riots.

When the sweds start going after people for muder based on a confession in a language the suspect didn't speak I'll worry.
 
I find this case of Assange's extradition to be far too America centered, and not centered enough on the (to my mind) curious laws in Sweden that appear to amount to "guilt by accusation" in the case of sexual shenanigans.

If I have overstated that, I'll ask any of our Swedish posters to help me better understand.
 
I find this case of Assange's extradition to be far too America centered, and not centered enough on the (to my mind) curious laws in Sweden that appear to amount to "guilt by accusation" in the case of sexual shenanigans.

If I have overstated that, I'll ask any of our Swedish posters to help me better understand.

Uh? First you'd need to explain what you mean with "guilt by accusation" and why you think this case is an example of that.
 
Any uk legal hawks around? Would such a case (as presented) by brought by the police in the uk? Not because the accusations aren't serious enough, but because there would seem to be little way of getting a successful prosecution. One person's word against another with no physical evidence.....

Does Sweden have a different way of considering which cases are in thd public interest to bring, or is there a greater likelihood of a guilty sentence in Sweden (and why?)
 
Rape cases are often one person's against another with little evidence, especially when it comes to the most common form of rape, aquaintence rape. Western countries will at least investigate allegations and if they believe the complaint is valid will prosecute even if the chances of getting a guilty verdict is slim.
 
I always thought that we (the uk) would investigate allclaims but only bring prosecutions when there was areasonable expectation of conviction.....But I could be mistaken...
 
I always thought that we (the uk) would investigate allclaims but only bring prosecutions when there was areasonable expectation of conviction.....But I could be mistaken...

Malcolm Turnball, who is a centrist political figure in Australia, stated the facts of the case as presented wouldn't sustain a police investigation here. I think that opinion is reasonably widely held in Australia.

Then again some aspects of Ardin and the police investigation are decidedly odd.

Apparantly she supplied a torn used condom as Exhibit A
You may view said condom here
http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2011/02/assange_leak.jpg

• Miss A. saved the broken condom from her encounter for a week while Assange stayed in her flat in Stockholm, and then turned it over to police once the criminal investigation began. A Xeroxed photo of the condom is in the file. Police forensics examiners were unable to obtain a DNA sample from the condom.

Either Swedish forensics examiners are hopeless clowns or this was an unsatisfactory sexual encounter all round.

The other option Miss Ardin is a liar.
 
Miss A. saved the broken condom from her encounter for a week while Assange stayed in her flat in Stockholm, and then turned it over to police once the criminal investigation began.
A Xeroxed photo of the condom is in the file. Police forensics examiners were unable to obtain a DNA sample from the condom.
Who the hell saves used condoms, aka white fish?
Wait, a certain intern saved a cum stained dress.

NVM.
 

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