Ashcroft's Amerika becoming a reality

[Tony]

If this bothers you so much, why did you invoke partisan politics yourself with your comment?

Where?

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Where?

Here, in your very first post on htis thread.

The only problem the leftists have with this is that they didnt think of it first.

If that comment isn't partisan, I can't think of one that is.

 

[Sundog]

Im just skeptical this has anything to do with civil liberties or constitutional rights and everything to do with partisan politics.

I don't understand; how could partisan politics be involved here? Are you saying we're overreacting because we're against Bush? A lot of "true" conservatives are getting worried too.

 

[Tony]

Here, in your very first post on htis thread.



If that comment isn't partisan, I can't think of one that is.

If you read further down you will see that I followed that up with a more accurate portrait of my opinion.

 

[Tony]

I don't understand; how could partisan politics be involved here? Are you saying we're overreacting because we're against Bush? A lot of "true" conservatives are getting worried too.

Im saying that if a leftist president was doing the same thing (or simular), there wouldn't be the outcry there is now.

 

[Sundog]

Im saying that if a leftist president was doing the same thing (or simular), there wouldn't be the outcry there is now.

Do you really understand liberals that little?

That's absurd.

And it doesn't address why you are silent while Republicans burn down the house.

And make up your mind, does it bother you or not? And if so, why? Why can't we be bothered for the same reasons you are, why must our reasons be "political"?

 

[jj]

It does bother me (a lot), but I don’t believe for one second that the pissing and moaning about it is anything but partisan. The left has shown a blatant disregard for constitutional and civil rights in the recent past, the only reason they seem to care now is because a republican is in charge.

Come on, Tony, the Patriot Act and this move of Ashcrofts to effectively order all crimes be charged under the Patriot Act if possible, despite the claim when it was passed of 'discretion', are far and beyond anything the "liberal" has ever done.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

You mean this post?

It does bother me (a lot), but I don’t believe for one second that the pissing and moaning about it is anything but partisan. The left has shown a blatant disregard for constitutional and civil rights in the recent past, the only reason they seem to care now is because a republican is in charge.

Sounds like a generalization and a pretty partisan one at that to me.

 

[Tony]

Do you really understand liberals that little?

There is nothing liberal about leftists.

And it doesn't address why you are silent while Republicans burn down the house.

Huh?

 

[Tony]

Come on, Tony, the Patriot Act and this move of Ashcrofts to effectively order all crimes be charged under the Patriot Act if possible, despite the claim when it was passed of 'discretion', are far and beyond anything the "liberal" has ever done.

I already said that:

admit, these aren't extreme as the patriot act, but the left wasn’t presented with the opportunity 9/11 provided.

 

[Sundog]

There is nothing liberal about leftists.

And it doesn't address why you are silent while Republicans burn down the house.

Huh?

Simple. Here the Republicans commit far greater travesties to the Constitution than Janet Reno ever envisioned, and you're silent... why?

 

[Tony]

Sounds like a generalization and a pretty partisan one at that to me.

I guess being skeptical is equivalent to being partisan?

 

[Tony]

Simple. Here the Republicans commit far greater travesties to the Constitution than Janet Reno ever envisioned, and you're silent... why?

Dude, im not silent. Im pissed off at this just like you are.

 

[Sundog]

Dude, im not silent. Im pissed off at this just like you are.

Good. I think you just haven't progressed far enough along the road to yell at Republicans instead of Democrats for things Republicans do. But I'm glad you're p'o'd.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

I guess being skeptical is equivalent to being partisan?

You said

The left has shown a blatant disregard for constitutional and civil rights in the recent past, the only reason they seem to care now is because a republican is in charge.

That doesn't sound like skeptical statement to me and it sound everything like a blanket statement that all leftists are in favor of ignoring the constitution.

Generalizations nearly always get you into trouble from a logical perspective.

 

[Tony]

Good. I think you just haven't progressed far enough along the road to yell at Republicans instead of Democrats for things Republicans do.

Thats the thing, I dont think there is a difference. I have every reason to believe (considering the evidence) that if the leftists were in charge when 9/11 happened, the same thing (the Patriot Act), if not something worse, would have happened.

 

[Tony]

That doesn't sound like skeptical statement to me and it sound everything like a blanket statement that all leftists are in favor of ignoring the constitution.

Unless you can show me a leftist against welfare, medicare, social security, gun laws, and/or government programs I think it would be safe to say that all leftists are in favor of ignoring the constitution.

 

[Sundog]

Thats the thing, I dont think there is a difference. I have every reason to believe (considering the evidence) that if the leftists were in charge when 9/11 happened, the same thing (the Patriot Act), if not something worse, would have happened.

I can understand that view, and who knows, maybe you're right. But at least include the Republicans in your derision. This is their own little creation.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Unless you can show me a leftist against welfare, medicare, social security, gun laws, and/or government programs I think it would be safe to say that all leftists are in favor of ignoring the constitution.

Then your statement IS partisan, it is an attack on those who hold a differing political opinion. That is probably the simplest definition of partisan I can think of.

But I'll answer your question anyway. I could probably best be described as a left-leaning libertarian. I am opposed to gun laws, I see no constitutional problem with welfare, since states run their own welfare programs and they have every right to do that according to the constitution (their own constitutions are a different matter, but that is going to vary by state), though I do have a problem with the federal MANDATING that states must have a welfare program. Likewise I find no constitutional problem with Social Security or Medicare, though there are better ways of accomplishing the same goals. Lastly, "government programs" is too vague for me to even know what you are talking about, NASA is a government program. Whatever comittee is in charge of procuring ammunition for the militaries weapons is a governemnt program. Nearly any action the government takes is a government program.

 

[TillEulenspiegel]

Tony...........................


I really don't know how to reply to this sort of .....thing. I have all I can do to stop myself from tearing my own teeth with a pliers and not engage in Ad-Homs. I know most here don't respond to this kind of...thing they posses better control of thier emotions but some have and I'm sure they are shaking thier heads in utter disbelief.

The best thing I can say to You as to try to inform You of reality, is that most firmly established conservative groups and analysts are vehemently in the camp of condemnation of this usurpation ( or attempt ) of the rights to privacy and free speech. Do research prove me wrong. In the meantime I suggest that if you believe what You wrote , that You quickly remove the second signature on Your tag line, as your exclaimnations are completely divergent with Your views