"As it harm none, do what you will"

[CFLarsen]

You can pick and choose the deities. You can believe in curses or not. You can use curses or not. You can subscribe to Gardnerian Wicca or not. You can cast spells or not.

Because there is no central dogma, Wicca is what you make of it.

There are many drawbacks to being a Solitary beyond not being recognised by other Wiccans, I won't deny that. Perhaps one of the most difficult things is determining which material is "correct" and meaningful for you. For example, some books include information on ritual magic, but this is not necessarily important for the practice of Wicca. If you don't already know this and find yourself uncomfortable with the material, you might consider turning away from Wicca.

This leads directly into another problem Solitaries often have - what to study. Sabbats, esbats, tarot, magic... it all seems so interesting, but which are the most important? The major areas of Wicca to study include history and philosophy of the faith, Sabbats and esbats, and your relationship with the Lord and Lady. (I am sure that there many out there that will disagree with me, but personally I feel these topics will give you a good foundation from which to study further topics.) Other topics, such as tarot, magic and astrology, are excellent additions, but they are by no means necessary and essentially to the study and practice of Wicca.
Source

Beyond these common factors, Wicca is such a broadly used term that it encompasses a bewildering array of faiths - not unlike Christianity. It even covers Wiccan Christians, Wiccan Agnostics, Wiccan Jews, etc.

This FAQ contradicts Zaayrdragon:

Q. Can I be a Christian and a Wiccan?

A. No. Christianity is a religion which specifically forbids the practice of witchcraft, divination and the worship of any gods other than the Christian god. Wicca itself is a religion in which the ancient, pre-Christian gods and goddesses of paganism are acknowledged and/or worshiped. Sure you can be a Christian and use tarot cards, do spells and rituals and call yourself a witch if you want, but you can not be two religions at once (and have anyone take you seriously).
Source

Wicca is what you make of it.

 

[Ceinwyn]

For example, some books include information on ritual magic, but this is not necessarily important for the practice of Wicca. If you don't already know this and find yourself uncomfortable with the material, you might consider turning away from Wicca.

This leads directly into another problem Solitaries often have - what to study. Sabbats, esbats, tarot, magic... it all seems so interesting, but which are the most important? The major areas of Wicca to study include history and philosophy of the faith, Sabbats and esbats, and your relationship with the Lord and Lady. (I am sure that there many out there that will disagree with me, but personally I feel these topics will give you a good foundation from which to study further topics.)

No, not a religion at all.

edit to add: was there a point to this at all? Can someone refresh my memory?

 

[Ceinwyn]

You can pick and choose the deities. You can believe in curses or not. You can use curses or not. You can subscribe to Gardnerian Wicca or not. You can cast spells or not.

Because there is no central dogma, Wicca is what you make of it.

Indeed, but there are deities. There is a dogma to pick from. There are curses to choose. There are different beliefs to choose from.

There is a religion.

 

[CFLarsen]

Indeed, but there are deities. There is a dogma to pick from. There are curses to choose. There are different beliefs to choose from.

There is a religion.

In the words of zaayrdragon - "Wicca is a hodge-podge of beliefs - in fact, Wicca isn't any one belief system, but rather any belief system that accepts the 'Rede' (short form)"

Remind me again, was there anything religious in the Rede?

 

[Ceinwyn]

In the words of zaayrdragon - "Wicca is a hodge-podge of beliefs - in fact, Wicca isn't any one belief system, but rather any belief system that accepts the 'Rede' (short form)"

Remind me again, was there anything religious in the Rede?

two words: belief system.


If you can't figure that out, too bad for you.

 

[Ceinwyn]

Remind me again, was there anything religious in the Rede?

Oh, are you moving the goalposts AGAIN? You know, it's getting hard to keep track.

So now you want to know what is religious in the Rede itself? Really?

Bide within the Law you must, in perfect Love and perfect Trust.
Live you must and let to live, fairly take and fairly give.

For tread the Circle thrice about to keep unwelcome spirits out.
To bind the spell well every time, let the spell be said in rhyme.

Light of eye and soft of touch, speak you little, listen much.
Honor the Old Ones in deed and name,
let love and light be our guides again.

Deosil go by the waxing moon, chanting out the joyful tune.
Widdershins go when the moon doth wane,
and the werewolf howls by the dread wolfsbane.

When the Lady's moon is new, kiss the hand to Her times two.
When the moon rides at Her peak then your heart's desire seek.

Heed the North winds mighty gale, lock the door and trim the sail.
When the Wind blows from the East, expect the new and set the feast.

When the wind comes from the South, love will kiss you on the mouth.
When the wind whispers from the West, all hearts will find peace and rest.

Nine woods in the Cauldron go, burn them fast and burn them slow.
Birch in the fire goes to represent what the Lady knows.

Oak in the forest towers with might, in the fire it brings the God's
insight. Rowan is a tree of power causing life and magick to flower.

Willows at the waterside stand ready to help us to the Summerland.
Hawthorn is burned to purify and to draw faerie to your eye.

Hazel-the tree of wisdom and learning adds its strength to the bright fire burning.
White are the flowers of Apple tree that brings us fruits of fertility.

Grapes grow upon the vine giving us both joy and wine.
Fir does mark the evergreen to represent immortality seen.

Elder is the Lady's tree burn it not or cursed you'll be.
Four times the Major Sabbats mark in the light and in the dark.

As the old year starts to wane the new begins, it's now Samhain.
When the time for Imbolc shows watch for flowers through the snows.

When the wheel begins to turn soon the Beltane fires will burn.
As the wheel turns to Lamas night power is brought to magick rite.

Four times the Minor Sabbats fall use the Sun to mark them all.
When the wheel has turned to Yule light the log the Horned One rules.

In the spring, when night equals day time for Ostara to come our way.
When the Sun has reached it's height time for Oak and Holly to fight.

Harvesting comes to one and all when the Autumn Equinox does fall.
Heed the flower, bush, and tree by the Lady blessed you'll be.

Where the rippling waters go cast a stone, the truth you'll know.
When you have and hold a need, harken not to others greed.

With a fool no season spend or be counted as his friend.
Merry Meet and Merry Part bright the cheeks and warm the heart.

Mind the Three-fold Laws you should three times bad and three times good.
When misfortune is enow wear the star upon your brow.

Be true in love this you must do unless your love is false to you.

These Eight words the Rede fulfill:

"An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will"

Any Wiccan who would like to dispute, please do.

 

[CFLarsen]

two words: belief system.

So now you want to know what is religious in the Rede itself? Really?

Look, it's clear by now that:

• The only thing Wiccans can marginally claim to have in common is the Rede.
• Some Wiccans refer to this as a guideline, some refer to is as the Law. No agreement there.
• There is nothing religious in the Rede/Law.
• Everything that could even remotely be called religious in Wicca is outside the Rede/Law.
• As for the religious parts, Wiccans can't decide what is Wiccan religion and what is not.
• There is fundamental disagreement among Wiccans as to whether or not people can be e.g. Christians as well.
• Wiccans can choose whatever deities they prefer. Not what the dogma says, because there is no religious dogma.
• Even Wiccans admit that it is a "hodge-podge of beliefs".

If the only thing that binds the Wiccans together is a non-religious guideline/law, is it really correct to call Wicca a religion, then?

Is a "belief system" the same as a religion?

 

[Ceinwyn]

Look, it's clear by now that:

• The only thing Wiccans can marginally claim to have in common is the Rede.

• 
  
  It's the most public thing, yes. It's not a bad guideline.
  
  [*]Some Wiccans refer to this as a guideline, some refer to is as the Law. No agreement there.
  
  No one has ever referred to it as a Law, as you describe it. Please produce evidence.
  
  
  [*]There is nothing religious in the Rede/Law.
  
  Um, you can't read.
  
  [*]Everything that could even remotely be called religious in Wicca is outside the Rede/Law.
  
  Again, you can't read. Also, you are being purposefully obtuse. Shame on you.
  
  [*]As for the religious parts, Wiccans can't decide what is Wiccan religion and what is not.
  [*]There is fundamental disagreement among Wiccans as to whether or not people can be e.g. Christians as well.
  [*]Wiccans can choose whatever deities they prefer. Not what the dogma says, because there is no religious dogma.
  [*]Even Wiccans admit that it is a "hodge-podge of beliefs".

Even some Christians can't decide on what Christ is going to do or what he means when he says stuff. I guess they aren't real Christians then.

If the only thing that binds the Wiccans together is a non-religious guideline/law, is it really correct to call Wicca a religion, then?

Yes, it is.

Most Wiccans believe in two things: that the earth should be revered and that there are deities to be worshipped. That is religious, no matter how you try to deconstruct it.

 

[CFLarsen]

It's the most public thing, yes. It's not a bad guideline.

Hold on. I am not talking about the most public thing. Is it the only thing they have in common, yes or no?

No one has ever referred to it as a Law, as you describe it. Please produce evidence.

Sure:

Wicca has but one law of action and ethics. It is called the Wiccan Rede or the Wiccan Law, and can be found under the Reading Room category of the same name.
Source

Wiccan ethics are summed up in the Law called the Wiccan Rede, "An Ye Harm None, Do As Ye Will".
Source

Are these Wiccans not real Wiccans, then?

Um, you can't read.

Yes, I can read. Where is the religious in "An Ye Harm None, Do As Ye Will"?

Again, you can't read. Also, you are being purposefully obtuse. Shame on you.

Feel free to point out where the religious is in "An Ye Harm None, Do As Ye Will"?

Even some Christians can't decide on what Christ is going to do or what he means when he says stuff. I guess they aren't real Christians then.

Doesn't change the fact that Wiccans can't decide on what Wicca is.

Yes, it is.

Most Wiccans believe in two things: that the earth should be revered and that there are deities to be worshipped. That is religious, no matter how you try to deconstruct it.

I am not talking about "most Wiccans". I am talking about what the Wiccan religion is.

Can a Wiccan worship solely Egyptian gods, and still call himself a Wiccan?

 

[Ceinwyn]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ceinwyn
It's the most public thing, yes. It's not a bad guideline.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Hold on. I am not talking about the most public thing. Is it the only thing they have in common, yes or no? Yes, I think it is.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ceinwyn
No one has ever referred to it as a Law, as you describe it. Please produce evidence.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Sure:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wicca has but one law of action and ethics.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wiccan ethics are summed up in the Law called the Wiccan Rede, "An Ye Harm None, Do As Ye Will".
Source--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

II. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.


III. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain.


IV. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.


V. Honour thy father and thy mother.

VI. Thou shalt not kill.

VII. Thou shalt not commit adultery.


VIII. Thou shalt not steal.


IX. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.


X. Thou shalt not covet any thing that is thy neighbour's.


You were talking about ethics?


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ceinwyn
Even some Christians can't decide on what Christ is going to do or what he means when he says stuff. I guess they aren't real Christians then.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Doesn't change the fact that Wiccans can't decide on what Wicca is.

And neither can you.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ceinwyn
Yes, it is.

Most Wiccans believe in two things: that the earth should be revered and that there are deities to be worshipped. That is religious, no matter how you try to deconstruct it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not talking about "most Wiccans". I am talking about what the Wiccan religion is.

Can a Wiccan worship solely Egyptian gods, and still call himself a Wiccan?

My goalposts are wrecked and my field is getting very muddy. Now I have to figure out where to put the Egyptians.

I think maybe the basement. They like stonework.

 

[Ceinwyn]

Can a Christian worship solely Mary, and still call himself a Christian?

Oh I forgot, that's a real religion.

 

[CFLarsen]

Yes, I think it is.

Good.

You were talking about ethics?

Does the evidence prove that Wiccans refer to the Rede as a Law, yes or no?

And neither can you.

I am not trying to. I am pointing out that there is no common religious beliefs for Wiccans, since the only thing they have in common is the Rede/Law, and there is nothing religious in that.

My goalposts are wrecked and my field is getting very muddy. Now I have to figure out where to put the Egyptians.

I think maybe the basement. They like stonework.

Since I have proved that Wiccans use the term Law about the Rede, do you think that those Wiccans are real Wiccans? Yes or no.

Are the Christian-Wiccans real Wiccans? Yes or no.

 

[CFLarsen]

Can a Christian worship solely Mary, and still call himself a Christian?

Oh I forgot, that's a real religion.

Mary is contained within the Christian faith.

 

[Ceinwyn]

Mary is contained within the Christian faith.

and so is the Rede, within Wiccan faith.

 

[CFLarsen]

and so is the Rede, within Wiccan faith.

But there is nothing religious in the Rede.

Does the evidence prove that Wiccans refer to the Rede as a Law, yes or no?

Since I have proved that Wiccans use the term Law about the Rede, do you think that those Wiccans are real Wiccans, yes or no?

Are the Christian-Wiccans real Wiccans, yes or no?

 

[Ceinwyn]

Since I have proved that Wiccans use the term Law about the Rede, do you think that those Wiccans are real Wiccans? Yes or no.

Yes. However, you have amply proven that you have a strong bias about religion.


Are the Christian-Wiccans real Wiccans? Yes or no.

If they call themselves Wiccan, yes.

 

[Ceinwyn]

But there is nothing religious in the Rede.

?

There is nothing religious in the biblical Commandments as well. Is that your point?

 

[Ceinwyn]

Claus said:

I am not trying to. I am pointing out that there is no common religious beliefs for Wiccans, since the only thing they have in common is the Rede/Law, and there is nothing religious in that.

I'm done here. I've tried, and failed. I am sorry.

 

[CFLarsen]

Yes. However, you have amply proven that you have a strong bias about religion.

That may well be. I doubt you can find anyone who doesn't feel strongly about religion.

If they call themselves Wiccan, yes.

So, Wiccans are Wiccans if they call themselves Wiccans? Wow.

There is nothing religious in the biblical Commandments as well.

Sure, there is:

1: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

2: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."

3: "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain."

4: "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

I'm done here. I've tried, and failed. I am sorry.

You've tried, and failed to show what is religious in the Rede/Law.

 

[Z]

Ceinwyn, there's no point.

He can't accept that Wiccans are what Wiccans are, and that they are systematically and specifically, dogmatically anti-dogmatic.

You see, Claus doesn't like Wiccans more than most religious groups because he can't pigeonhole Wiccans, the way he can most other woo.

Because he can't point to any one belief and ridicule it as a Wiccan belief, he's uncomfortable.

The simple fact is, that like any religion, people can be wrong about particulars. The very term 'rede', as repeatedly demonstrated, means 'advise'. Any Wiccan claiming that it is a 'law' is simply wrong.

Further, to be 'Wiccan' also means accepting some form of the Threefold Law - which is also specifically mystical in nature. Any Wiccan who does not accept some form of the Law of Returns is simply a Pagan.

Beyond this, there are no specifics whatsoever. However, that doesn't mean that Wiccans are ultimately united on this belief, either. Some Wiccans only see Dianic Wiccans as True Wiccans. Some think only Gardnerians are True Wiccans. Some deny the possibility of 'Christian Witches' or 'Kitchen Witches' or 'Hereditary Witches.'

Because even Wiccans are human, ultimately. And they make mistakes and have closed minds.

There is no difference between Christianity and Wicca in this regard. Lots of 'No True Scotsmen' about, but in the end, if a person claims to be Wiccan - they're Wiccan. You may feel differently about one group or another - like how I reject those who deny the Law of Returns as Wiccans - but in the end, that doesn't matter. If it calls itself Christian, it's Christian. If it calls itself Wiccan, it's Wiccan.

But with no central concepts of faith, no dogma, no specific practices, no unifying body, no anything that really 'ties it together', Wicca (as a whole) is also uniquely immune to Claus' normal mode of criticism. Instead, he's left begging for evidence of some unifying factor, without realizing that no such factor exists, nor does it matter.

I imagine he has similar problems with Universalist Unitarians, as well.

And it is really a shame, because the underlying structure of such churches is tolerance of others' beliefs, and acceptance of many different ways. "There are many paths to the Goddess, and all are equally right." If there is to be a better future, in regards to religion, it will be when all churches re-align with this structure. After all, no matter how smart man becomes, he'll always have a need for belief - which, of course, frustrates our Uber-Skeptics no end. Better, then, that this belief involves tolerance and acceptance, open-mindedness, and flexibility; rather than narrow-mindedness and hatred.

Ceinwyn, thanks for trying to take up the torch, as it were, but Larsen is not worth it. He's earned probably a permanent place on my Ignore list, placing him lower than lifegazer in my opinions. And that's how it goes.

Brightest blessings to you both,

Rev. T