"As it harm none, do what you will"

[Z]

Well, given it's a long weekend and all, I'll understand if that list of Wiccan names doesn't turn up until after Memorial Day.

But by Tuesday midnight GMT - Well, if he doesn't have a list by then, we'll know who the hypocrite is, won't we?

Well, if I'm not mistaken - and I might well be - the deadline has passed. No names, huh?

Meanwhile, he's harping on some point or other that he can look up for himself if he had the scrote to do so. What's he going on about? From Ceinwyn's quoting of his question, it seems he's too ignorant to understand what Wiccans believe in, religiously.

What do Christians believe in, religionwise?

There is absolutely no singular religious dogma followed by any and all Wiccans. There is absolutely no singular religious dogma followed by any and all Christians. There is absolutely no singular religious dogma followed by any and all Universalists. A singular unifying religious dogma does not define a religion. The people define religion. In some cases, a formal body exists to specifically define a type of religion; for example, Dianic Wiccans have specific religious beliefs about the various aspects which Deity uses to interact with people, and about the exact format of rituals and ceremonies. In other cases, all religious dogma is specifically determined by the individual practicioner.

I know what Claus is getting at with such a question. He's basically wanting to know what makes a Wiccan a Wiccan, and what separates Wiccans from other folks. Ceinwyn has the sense of it, I think: Wiccans recognize a mystical relationship between the Earth and mankind. They maintain a moral standard through careful interpretation of the Wiccan Rede and understanding of the Threefold Law. They accept the existence of the Divine, who has many, many faces for mankind to deal with. And, probably more importantly than any other factor, they accept personal responsibility for their actions, rather than expecting absolution or forgiveness from higher powers.

Beyond these common factors, Wicca is such a broadly used term that it encompasses a bewildering array of faiths - not unlike Christianity. It even covers Wiccan Christians, Wiccan Agnostics, Wiccan Jews, etc.

In spite of Claus not providing a response to the questions asked to him, I attempted to answer the question which, apparently, he has been asking. The only answers beyond what I have already provided him would be to click on some of the provided links and do the research yourself. As such, I have made the effort, I have gone the distance, I have maintained honor. Claus has not. I leave it to you, Gentle Reader, to make your own decisions. But for me, from now on, Claus is close kin to 1inChrist, Riddick, Radrook, Hammegk, and other close-minded, half-witted bigots.

It was a good thread - anyone wanting more information about Wicca, please feel free to drop me a P.M. I might even start a new thread about it sometime.

 

[HarryKeogh]

The questions still stands: What are the religious tenets of the religion Wicca?

well, to be fair your question before was: "what do Wiccans have in common, religious-wise?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca

It is commonly understood that Wiccans worship two deities, the Goddess and the God sometimes known as the Horned God. Some traditions such as the Dianic Wiccans mainly worship the Goddess; the God plays either no role, or a diminished role, in Dianism. Many Gardnerian Wiccans do not claim to be duotheistic, but rather, may practice some form of polytheism, often with particular reference to the Celtic pantheons; they may also be animists, pantheists, agnostics or indeed any of the other spectacular range of possibilities.

now do all Wiccans celebrate two deities? no. But not all Christians pray to the Virgin Mary or Saints (as Catholics do).

as you well know, every religion has believers within it who practice things a bit differently. Many religions including the most mainstream and popular ones have different sects with different beliefs and interpretations of scripture, etc.

now, back to your original post: Do you know of any Wiccans or claims by Wiccans that they take the rede completely literally? I'm suspecting that none of them do because it would be impossible to survive.

and do you still claim that the rede is "the law"?

 

[CFLarsen]

well, to be fair your question before was: "what do Wiccans have in common, religious-wise?"

I meant it to be the same. Maybe I was hoping that a rephrasing would have some Wiccans answer the question.

now do all Wiccans celebrate two deities? no. But not all Christians pray to the Virgin Mary or Saints (as Catholics do).

True. What I want to know - from Wiccans - is why they want to call (their version of) Wicca a religion, if they don't believe in anything supernatural.

now, back to your original post: Do you know of any Wiccans or claims by Wiccans that they take the rede completely literally? I'm suspecting that none of them do because it would be impossible to survive.

Which is my point.

and do you still claim that the rede is "the law"?

No, I am pointing out that some Wiccans do, some don't.

 

[HarryKeogh]

True. What I want to know - from Wiccans - is why they want to call (their version of) Wicca a religion, if they don't believe in anything supernatural.

I'm certainly not a Wiccan but I'm going to respond anyway...according to the 4th definition at Dictionary.com a religion can be a cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. There's no mention of the supernatural in that particular definition.

though I'm not fond of that definition because people will then say "science is your religion!" and in my opinion saying that waters down the word "religion" to be pretty meaningless.

 

[CFLarsen]

I'm certainly not a Wiccan but I'm going to respond anyway...according to the 4th definition at Dictionary.com a religion can be a cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. There's no mention of the supernatural in that particular definition.

though I'm not fond of that definition because people will then say "science is your religion!" and in my opinion saying that waters down the word "religion" to be pretty meaningless.

Exactly. Skepticism could also be described that way, were we to accept that definition of "religion".

Let's stick with the supernatural one.

 

[Z]

Who said Wiccans don't believe in anything supernatural?

Where did that even come out?

Deities aren't supernatural? A mystical link between the Earth and Man isn't supernatural? Believing in magic - which is a common though not defining aspect of Wicca - isn't supernatural? Karma isn't supernatural?

The Wiccan Rede, together with the Three-Fold Law, are the defining aspects of Wiccan belief. And if Claus is claiming the Three-Fold Law is not supernatural....

So... what makes Taoism supernatural? Or Zen? Or pure Buddhism? All are considered religions. (And I know the answers - does Claus?)

Or, if you want to get very pedantic, show me one - just one - Wiccan who has no belief in the supernatural at all. Just one. That's the fellow Claus is talking about. I've never - ever - met a Wiccan - or any person of faith - who didn't have some belief in the supernatural.


We'll just add this in to the false claims and accusations made by Klan Witch Hunter Klaus.

1) Names of Wiccans who interpret the Wiccan Rede as literal Law, and refuse to harm bacteria, plants, etc.
2) Names of Wiccans who don't believe in anything supernatural.

I have a feeling neither one will ever be answered. He hath constructed men of straw to face me. He hath sought to burn me with such. But I am the flame.

 

[Z]

Is Druidism - specifically, the version that worships the powers and magic of nature alone, with no Gods at all - is this a religion?

Is animism a religion?

What about faith that the universe is alive, but completely describable via science? Is that a religion?

 

[Beerina]

Re: Re: "As it harm none, do what you will"

The Wiccans have the exact same problem libertarians do. Libertarians also have an anti harm principle that is just as central and just as ill defined in their philosophy.

What is harm? Who gets to define what harm is?

When philosophies can be defined with platitudes they all sound good.

It is when the real world has to be taken into account that philosophies based upon simplistic platitudes are found wanting.

Your own simplistic notions are what lead to "Newspeak". Harm is help, good is bad, etc., from this or that certain point of view, rather from the real-world, actual point of view. Check out 1984 and Brave New World, then get back to me.

 

[CFLarsen]

The Wiccan Rede, together with the Three-Fold Law, are the defining aspects of Wiccan belief. And if Claus is claiming the Three-Fold Law is not supernatural....

Now, Wiccan beliefs are defined by the Three-fold law(!) as well. Is there anything else you want to include, before we move on? It would help the discussion tremendously, if we got all the arguments on the table first.

Or, if you want to get very pedantic, show me one - just one - Wiccan who has no belief in the supernatural at all. Just one. That's the fellow Claus is talking about. I've never - ever - met a Wiccan - or any person of faith - who didn't have some belief in the supernatural.

We'll just add this in to the false claims and accusations made by Klan Witch Hunter Klaus.

1) Names of Wiccans who interpret the Wiccan Rede as literal Law, and refuse to harm bacteria, plants, etc.
2) Names of Wiccans who don't believe in anything supernatural.

I have a feeling neither one will ever be answered. He hath constructed men of straw to face me. He hath sought to burn me with such. But I am the flame.

Spare the dramatic prose. You are not the "flame", but you are here, claiming to be a Wiccan. So, naturally, your beliefs are questioned. It has nothing to with "Klan Witch Hunting".

Do you really think that your beliefs should not be questioned, just because you are Wiccan?

 

[CFLarsen]

Yep, basically, Wicca is a hodge-podge of beliefs - in fact, Wicca isn't any one belief system, but rather any belief system that accepts the 'Rede' (short form). Thus, there are Christian Wiccans, Jewish Wiccans, etc.

...

Anyway, Modern Wicca is itself not a singular religion either - like Christianity, most folks are hard-pressed to define Wicca in such a way as to include all sects of Wicca. Nor is Neopaganism synonymous with Wicca - more like Neopaganism is the broad group, while Wicca is a more selective sub-grouping.

BTW - Woo is optional, but pretty damned common.

Source

Oops. What was that about "hodge-podge" again?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Do you really think that your beliefs should not be questioned, just because you are Wiccan?

Do you really believe we ignore the fact that you cannot provide evidence for claims that you have made?

 

[crimresearch]

The belief that no one will notice Claus' behavior is a central tenet of his religion, and an article of faith among his many followers here at JREF.

 

[Z]

The belief that no one will notice Claus' behavior is a central tenet of his religion, and an article of faith among his many followers here at JREF.

Who?

 

[HarryKeogh]

I'm just curious if the first post to this thread was "the rede is a guideline like "the golden rule". It's obviously not meant to take literally as that would be impossible. Different Wiccans may interpret it differently like others may interpret other guidelines. For example some may see it or the golden rule as a call to be a vegetarian. Some may see the commandment "thou shalt not kill" as a call to be anti-capital punishment. But others will not. Redes, laws, constitutions will always be open to interpretation" would that make for a more concise, polite thread?

Though I'm glad this thread started because I learned more about Wicca than I had before.

Personally, the premise of this thread demonstrated to me someone being purposefully obtuse to knock on a religion. The Wiccan rede appears to be a perfectly reasonable code to ascribe to. To feign confusion about how it is supposed to be taken 100% literally seems bizzare and silly.

 

[Ceinwyn]

As far as I understand it, Wicca is most certainly a religion. It may have different connotations for different people, but in general there is a belief in the supernatural insofar as specific deities are invoked and rituals to deities are performed.

There have been links aplenty already posted so I won't bother, but for Claus to disingenuously ask about any religious or supernatural aspects to me is simply trollish. I certainly expected better.

 

[CFLarsen]

And all I asked was a very simple question: What do Wiccans have in common, religious-wise?

Why is that so darn hard to answer?
























..........is it because they don't have anything in common, religious-wise?

 

[Ceinwyn]

And all I asked was a very simple question: What do Wiccans have in common, religious-wise?

Why is that so darn hard to answer?

..........is it because they don't have anything in common, religious-wise?

And I just told you in my last post: "in general there is a belief in the supernatural insofar as specific deities are invoked and rituals to deities are performed."

If you need more info on those rituals or deities, check the links that were offered to you earlier in this thread.

 

[CFLarsen]

And I just told you in my last post: "in general there is a belief in the supernatural insofar as specific deities are invoked and rituals to deities are performed."

If you need more info on those rituals or deities, check the links that were offered to you earlier in this thread.

How does that correspond with the claim that Wicca is what Wiccans decide?

 

[Ceinwyn]

So to recap:

Claus asked:

"The Wiccan credo.

How is it possible to live by that? You can't walk anywhere, because you are bound to step on bugs. Each time you breathe, you destroy bacteria in the air (good for you, not good for the bacteria). You can't cook anything, because you will kill living creatures by doing so. You can't eat anything at all, for the same reason. You can't have sex, because if you ejaculate, you kill sperm.

Yet, I don't see Wiccans stop walking about, breathing, cooking, eating, or having sex. So, when is something harmful, and when is it not? Where is the line drawn?

I'm puzzled."

You know, the more I look at this post, the more I think Claus just likes to wind people up. Other religions don't talk about killing bugs, but apparently Wicca does?

There was a great deal of talk about Catholicism, which was interesting but mainly pointless. Catholics eat meat and kill bugs. They don't care.

But Wiccans. Hm. Are they really religious? Do they have an organized system of belief? Ah, now that's important. Why? I don't know.

But to Claus it is. It is of utmost importance. Do Wiccans have any kind of organized religion? Do they worship? Do they have a church? Do they give tithes? Do they hold onto tin cans and profess all their infidelities?

No. Too bad. As it turns out, Wiccans believe all kinds of different things and worship all kinds of ways. This is bad. This means it's not a religion. This means Claus gets to ask more stupid questions about pointless stuff.

It's been an interesting thread, mostly because I now understand a few things about some people on this thread, such as who is an interesting poster and who is acting like a bully.

 

[Ceinwyn]

How does that correspond with the claim that Wicca is what Wiccans decide?

Who made that claim?

edit to add: you know, it doesn't really matter because in the end, Wiccans worship something. And that's a religion, whether you like it or not.