"As it harm none, do what you will"

[TragicMonkey]

'Wicca' is a very broad term that includes both followers of establishment - Dianics and Gardnerians come to mind - and 'unique to one' believers. It also includes closet followers - Wiccans that we refer to as 'read-it-in-a-book' Wiccans. These are the ones who buy the latest Silver Ravenwolf book and practice it to the letter, without thought, but claim to be taking personal responsibility for their faith.

What do you call the ones who chose Wicca solely because they think it's cool to be Wicca? I know one like that. He has a lot of paintings of wizards and little statues of unicorns and a lot of fantasy books with elves and druids on the cover art. He also says things like he can feel people putting curses on him, and he deflects the curses with his powers. I can't imagine he's in it for the religion. He seems to want to be Willow from Buffy (but he's only managing a Xander).

People like that must be as embarrassing to real believers as Hollywood celebrities are for real Buddhists.

 

[Z]

What do you call the ones who chose Wicca solely because they think it's cool to be Wicca? I know one like that. He has a lot of paintings of wizards and little statues of unicorns and a lot of fantasy books with elves and druids on the cover art. He also says things like he can feel people putting curses on him, and he deflects the curses with his powers. I can't imagine he's in it for the religion. He seems to want to be Willow from Buffy (but he's only managing a Xander).

People like that must be as embarrassing to real believers as Hollywood celebrities are for real Buddhists.

I think the two most common terms I've heard in regards to this class of character is, 'wanna-bea-witch' and 'Goth-Wiccan'. They're about as Wiccan as those 'Bible-Thumper' cheerleader/sluts in high school were. Unfortunately, between Hollywood and our more flamboyant - and therefore, more visible - members, this is the image of Wiccan that many, many people have. I've also heard them called, 'Flaming-Witch', in reference to the attitudes between conservative-appearing homosexuals and 'flamers'. There is a similar love-hate relationship, in many cases, too.

There's really no way, by dress alone, to spot a serious Wiccan. Some go totally goth; others look like Gypsies, or rejects from Goodwill. And quite a few look just like everyone else. Sometimes the outlandishly dressed ones are completely serious about the faith, and just like to dress weird and aren't afraid to do so. And sometimes the conservative coulda-been-a-Xian is in his basement with a 50-gallon cast-iron cauldron desperately trying to summon dragons to help him make Claudia Schiffer fall in love with him.

(Disclaimer: I never dress conservatively. )

Just kidding - relax.

 

[Z]

Well, given it's a long weekend and all, I'll understand if that list of Wiccan names doesn't turn up until after Memorial Day.

But by Tuesday midnight GMT - Well, if he doesn't have a list by then, we'll know who the hypocrite is, won't we?

 

[LW]

Still no evidence.

Yes, still no evidence that would show that there is even one single Wicca living on the Earth that interprets the "none" to include bacteria.

But I don't think you will ever provide it. After all, providing evidence for claims is something that the others have to do, not you.

And, you haven't yet answered my question:

Are there any non-imported religions in Africa? Yes or no, simple answer.

 

[CFLarsen]

You claimed that Wicca is not a religion because it is a "hodge-podge of superstitious beliefs".

I think that if you examine the traditional African religions (or, more exactly, what everybody else in the world calls traditional African religions), you may notice that they all are "a hodge-podge of superstitious beliefs".

Wrong.

What is the essential difference between, say the Voodoo-like religions of West Africa and Wicca? [And an aside for pedantic readers: I know that strictly-speaking those religions are not "Voodoo", but they are close enough for old artillerist.]

I still don't get your point. The religions found in West Africa are not all Voodoo-like.

 

[CFLarsen]

Yes, still no evidence that would show that there is even one single Wicca living on the Earth that interprets the "none" to include bacteria.

We have seen evidence that Wicca is whatever Wiccans want it to be. There is no agreement whatsoever. I think that proves my point beautifully. You are free to disagree, of course.

Are there any non-imported religions in Africa? Yes or no, simple answer.

Yes, there are non-imported religions in Africa: Yoruba, Orisha, Ifa, Vodun.

What is your point? If your point is that they are all Voodoo-like, then I'm afraid you are working from a faulty premise.

 

[The GM]

No, that's not my point. My point is that there is no "Wiccan" belief. It is everything to everyone, and therefore, nothing.

If I might be so bold as to put this thought into a slightly different context.
I tell my lover he means everything to me.
Many people tell their lovers they mean everything to them.
The ideal of love has many different interpretations.
Does that mean that the ideal of love is nothing, and the belief that one should try to live up to the ideal of love in a relationship is crapola?

Just as an example.

 

[LW]

Wrong.

Umm. Are you aware that you are speaking about a religion where the basic form of worship is an explicit trade: the worshipper gives something to the god in exchange for the god actively protecting the worshipper? A religion where it is a common belief that having a fetish of Legba on your yard will make your valuables invisible to any visiting thieves. A religion where it is a common belief that carrying an amulet of Gu will teleport you to safety if you are about to have a driving accident. A religion where a worshipper may punish his or her god by witholding sacrifices if the god doesn't do his end of bargain.

In case you wonder, my source is Sinikka Tarvainen's Voodoo:Afrikkalainen menestystarina, ISBN 951-570-518-5.

The only explanation that I can think for your views that Wicca is a "hodge-podge of superstitious beliefs" while Voodoo-like religions are not is that you don't actually know anything about Voodoo-like religions.

I still don't get your point.

It is simple. You are inconsistent. You say that Wicca is not a religion but instead a "hodge-podge of superstitious beliefs" but you don't apply that same standard to the African religions that are even more diverse and lack any form of official doctrine.

The religions found in West Africa are not all Voodoo-like.

I used Voodoo-like religions as an example because they are the only African religions that I know something about. My belief is that other traditional African religions are similar in their lack of organization but I don't know that for sure.

We have seen evidence that Wicca is whatever Wiccans want it to be. There is no agreement whatsoever. I think that proves my point beautifully. You are free to disagree, of course.

And no Wicca interprets their belief in the way that you do. So you are attacking strawmen.

Also, the traditional African religions show even less agreement about their teachings than Wicca does. Tarvainen puts its nicely on page 26 of her book:

Voodoon tai sen lähiuskontojen tutkija löytääkin itsensä pian labyrintista, jossa samoilla jumalilla on eri nimiä, eri jumalilla on samoja attribuutteja, jotkut jumalat paljastuvat toisten ilmenemismuodoiksi ja jotkut ilmenemismuodot ovat eriytyneet eri jumaliksi.

My translation:

A researcher who studies Voodoo or its close relatives quickly finds herself in a labyrinth were same gods have different names, different gods have same attributes, some gods are revealed to be aspects of other gods, and some aspects have became separate gods.

The Yorubas, for example, have more than 1700 different gods. And this doesn't count the spirits of ancestors that are venerated. But an individual Yoruba will not worship them all. Most probably, he doesn't even know the names of more than a couple of dozens of them: the main gods that are worshipped in the whole country (Olodumare, Olorun, Orishanla, Eshu, Orunmila, Yemoja, Oshun, Shango, Orisha-Oku, Ogun, Osanyin, Oya, Ibedji), the local gods that are worshipped where he or she lives, and the family gods. Every Yoruba can choose to actively worship any subset of the gods he or she wishes and sacrifice to them according to his or her preferences. There is absolutely no authority that would tell what are the accepted forms of worship.

So, what is the exact feature that makes Wicca a non-religion and why doesn't it apply to traditional African religions?

 

[CFLarsen]

Umm. Are you aware that you are speaking about a religion where the basic form of worship is an explicit trade: the worshipper gives something to the god in exchange for the god actively protecting the worshipper? A religion where it is a common belief that having a fetish of Legba on your yard will make your valuables invisible to any visiting thieves. A religion where it is a common belief that carrying an amulet of Gu will teleport you to safety if you are about to have a driving accident. A religion where a worshipper may punish his or her god by witholding sacrifices if the god doesn't do his end of bargain.

A Catholic gives confession and is absolved of his sins. How is this different from God giving protection to the Catholic?

A Catholic believes that holy relics will grant you certain favors re. how God looks upon him.

A Catholic believes that owning such relics will do wonders - literally - re. how God looks upon him, when Judgment Day cometh, and it is decided who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell.

As for "punishing" his god? You have seriously misunderstood the concept of religion.

It is simple. You are inconsistent. You say that Wicca is not a religion but instead a "hodge-podge of superstitious beliefs" but you don't apply that same standard to the African religions that are even more diverse and lack any form of official doctrine.

In order to prove that, you would have to show how Catholicism is not an official doctrine.

I used Voodoo-like religions as an example because they are the only African religions that I know something about. My belief is that other traditional African religions are similar in their lack of organization but I don't know that for sure.

I have not seen you address the examples I gave at all. You are free to ask for evidence, but if you do, you should at least consider it.

And no Wicca interprets their belief in the way that you do. So you are attacking strawmen.

It is obvious that there is no "Wiccan" belief. Wicca is whatever people make it.

The Yorubas, for example, have more than 1700 different gods. And this doesn't count the spirits of ancestors that are venerated. But an individual Yoruba will not worship them all. Most probably, he doesn't even know the names of more than a couple of dozens of them: the main gods that are worshipped in the whole country (Olodumare, Olorun, Orishanla, Eshu, Orunmila, Yemoja, Oshun, Shango, Orisha-Oku, Ogun, Osanyin, Oya, Ibedji), the local gods that are worshipped where he or she lives, and the family gods. Every Yoruba can choose to actively worship any subset of the gods he or she wishes and sacrifice to them according to his or her preferences. There is absolutely no authority that would tell what are the accepted forms of worship.

So, what is the exact feature that makes Wicca a non-religion and why doesn't it apply to traditional African religions?

I wasn't aware that the number of Gods determined whether or not a religion was a religion. Perhaps you could tell me the exact number of Gods that determine this?

What about Greek Pantheon? The Egyptian? The Roman?

You got some 'splainin' to do.

 

[The GM]

It is obvious that there is no "Wiccan" belief. Wicca is whatever people make it.

*Heh!*
*Every* religion is whatever people make of it.
This is funny to watch, in that sort of trainwreck kind of way.
It's quite simple Claus, you're wrong.

 

[crimresearch]

Even seemingly orderly religions can't agree on the basics...Catholicism comes to mind as being unable to agree on even who is in charge, re: the Chinese and other breakway Catholics, the various 'orthodox' divisions, the American church, etc.

Even the Quakers can't agree on what it means to be 'non-credal'

So drumming up various possible interpretations of the Wiccan Rede would seem to make them *more* like 'organized' religions.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

It is obvious that there is no "Wiccan" belief. Wicca is whatever people make it.

If it is obvious to you that " there is no "Wiccan" belief. " ,


... what was the purpose of your OP and your continued insistence that the Rede is a ' law ', an imperitive that all Wiccans must follow ?




P.S.

We still need a name of a professed Wiccan who interprets the rede in the same way as you do?

Evidence, Claus?

 

[LW]

A Catholic gives confession and is absolved of his sins. How is this different from God giving protection to the Catholic?

The difference here is that the Catholic expects the reward after death, while the Voodoo believer [I'm tired of writing Voodoo-like and hereafter use just Voodoo to cover the whole bunch of related West African and Caribbean religions] expects them during life. If he doesn't get them from his god, his changes to a better one.

As for "punishing" his god? You have seriously misunderstood the concept of religion.

No, you have. You seem to believe that all religions are like Christianity. Most are not. Omnipotent, omnipresent, and eternal gods are rare features in religions.

In particular, the gods of Voodoo are not immortal in the usual sense. They need humans to feed and worship them. A god who is not remembered loses its identity. A god without worshippers will not receive food, drinks, or tobacco.

A Voodoo believer who ceases sacrificing for a while is threatening his god: "If you don't help me, I'll get some god who does and you will be forgotten."

In order to prove that, you would have to show how Catholicism is not an official doctrine.

Boggle. Why on earth are you dragging Catholicism to this? Of course Catholicism has an official doctrine (though its up to individual Catholics to decide how well they adhere to it).

I was speaking about Wicca and Voodoo and how neither of them have any official doctrine and no official organization. And how you think one of them is a religion and one not.

I have not seen you address the examples I gave at all. You are free to ask for evidence, but if you do, you should at least consider it.

I didn't notice any of your examples speaking about bacteria and absolute nonharming of every single living creature. If I missed that reference, could you please point where it was.

And if you speak about the link to Voodoo in Benin, you might well consider this quote from that page:

To conclude this brief communication on the traditional Vodun religion of Benin, I must point out that it was not possible to say everything, even on essential aspects.

It is obvious that there is no "Wiccan" belief. Wicca is whatever people make it.

It is obvious that there is no "Voodoo" belief. Voodoo is whatever people make it.

Why one of them is religion and the other is not?

I wasn't aware that the number of Gods determined whether or not a religion was a religion. Perhaps you could tell me the exact number of Gods that determine this?

Hey, it isn't me who is denying the religionhood of religions in this thread.

It is you.

Why is Voodoo religion while Wicca is not?

As you perfectly well understood, the point of including those different gods was to illustrate that there is no single Yoruba belief system but a host of related ways to worship the supernatural beings. You know, just like there is no single Wicca.

What about Greek Pantheon? The Egyptian? The Roman?

Funny that you used the Egyptians as an example. I don't know any other Ancient belief system that is as great mish-mash of contradictionary beliefs as the Egyptian pantheon.

You got some 'splainin' to do.

You could find better explanations if you bothered to actually read some books about religions.

 

[Z]

Here's an easy thing to consider: Paganism.

Paganism is a religion. Yet there is nothing whatsoever that unites Pagans, except a rejection of 'Book Religion'.

Yet it is still considered a religion.

At least Wicca has been formally recognized by many governments and agencies. I'm licensed in a clerical capacity in my state. Our Tradition is a formally recognized church with tax-exempt status which is very close to also earning its credentials as a seminary school.

So, if you get proof that Wicca is not a religion, please feel free to forward that to those agencies and governments that believe otherwise.

...

On a technical note, "Wiccan" is about as specific a descriptive term as "Christian". There is no formal Christian doctrine or dogma. There isn't even a singular common belief. If you can point to any of them - any belief whatsoever - which is held commonly by all 34,000 + sects of Christianity, I'd really, really like to see it.

Otherwise, you're proving that you don't know jack-diddly-squat about religion.

 

[LW]

Paganism is a religion. Yet there is nothing whatsoever that unites Pagans, except a rejection of 'Book Religion'.

Yet it is still considered a religion.

I think that calling "Paganism" "a religion" is stretching the term beyond any usability. It is a general term that covers a whole host of different religions.

 

[Z]

The exact same may be said of 'Christianity'.

There are even some sects who call themselves 'Christian' but reject that Christ existed.

And some Judaic sects admit to the coming of Christ.

Go fig.

 

[LW]

The exact same may be said of 'Christianity'.

The difference is that the Christian sects call themselves Christian. Most of pagan religions don't call themselves Pagans but the label is given by outsiders.

 

[Z]

The difference is that the Christian sects call themselves Christian. Most of pagan religions don't call themselves Pagans but the label is given by outsiders.

Not completely true. Most Pagans recognize that they are Pagans. Certainly, many Wiccans use the terms almost interchangeably. So do most Druids, Animists, and Humanidivinists I know of.

There's a good article

here about the definitions of Paganism.

Perhaps I should have said 'Neopagan' - but very few identify themselves as Neopagan.

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

Sorry to wade in here late, but...

Well, actually, as philosophies go, it's not a bad start. Yes, we can disagree on what constitutes "harm," and yes, life is more complex than a mere slogan to handle. However, as I said, it's a start.

The only trouble I have with it is that I just don't see why you need spirtuality (be it traditional religion or newage) to justify it.

 

[Z]

Sorry to wade in here late, but...

Well, actually, as philosophies go, it's not a bad start. Yes, we can disagree on what constitutes "harm," and yes, life is more complex than a mere slogan to handle. However, as I said, it's a start.

The only trouble I have with it is that I just don't see why you need spirtuality (be it traditional religion or newage) to justify it.

You don't. It's a good code.