Army suicides highest in 26 years!!

[ponderingturtle]

from your LINK


Not too much of a leap to presume her coke-snorting son has the same name.

So the army is treating this the best way, by hazing and putting as many difficulties in the way of treatment for these individuals in the hopes that they commit some infraction to be tossed out then.

 

[JJR]

So the army is treating this the best way, by hazing and putting as many difficulties in the way of treatment for these individuals in the hopes that they commit some infraction to be tossed out then.

Well, you do have to be loyal if you are in the military. You have to do your job.

When you get out and are older, you can believe whatever you want to . . . just remember that wherever you go politically, religioiusly, or philodophically . . . you are the sort of citizen that believes in doing his duty.

It's really all you need. The real world of the quick and the dead demands results and little else. Victory is the priority, success is all that's on the menu.

EDIT: Pro-troups but anti-war . . . with this attitude you could even be a citizen and vote in Robert A. Heinlein's, "Star Ship Troopers" world, where only those that have served get to vote. Death to the, "Babykiller" thing . . . sometimes hippies give liberals a bad name.

This war is dumb. Soldiers have to follow orders or they are hung as traitors though.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Well, you do have to be loyal if you are in the military. You have to do your job.

When you get out and are older, you can believe whatever you want to . . . just remember that wherever you go politically, religioiusly, or philodophically . . . you are the sort of citizen that believes in doing his duty.

It's really all you need. The real world of the quick and the dead demands results and little else. Victory is the priority, success is all that's on the menu.

So you have to do your job regardless of any and all mental distress then, and if you can't you are so weak you deserve to get sent out of the military with something other than a honorable discharge as well.

If the military is so interested in punishing those with psychological stresses, why don't they just admit it and not claim that they are doing everything that they can to help those suffering form such disorders?

 

[Rob Lister]

So the army is treating this the best way, by hazing and putting as many difficulties in the way of treatment for these individuals in the hopes that they commit some infraction to be tossed out then.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

 

[JJR]

So you have to do your job regardless of any and all mental distress then, and if you can't you are so weak you deserve to get sent out of the military with something other than a honorable discharge as well.

If the military is so interested in punishing those with psychological stresses, why don't they just admit it and not claim that they are doing everything that they can to help those suffering form such disorders?

In boot camp, they have the blue card. If you become too stressed out, you can use the card and get a time-out with the sergeant talking calmly with you.

Anyway, if you find stressful situations to be too much for you, you should just avoid them. Don't sign up.

You have to be prepared to kill the enemy when ordered to do so. There is no racism, no imperialism . . . nothing but the code of Unit-Core-God-Country . . . the unit comes first. The crew is your family. If you can't live that way, by all means avoid the military.

You will be hung for treason if you disobey orders.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Assumes facts not in evidence.

What facts not in evidence?

That they make people in extreme distress wait months for treatment.

Nope that happens

That they expect people in such distress to behave as if they where not in any distress.

Nope that is what you are in favor of.

That they claim that they are doing everything they can for such people

Nope that is easy

That when those in extreme mental distress start showing symptoms they are punished by their fellow soldiers and then if their behavior is upset enough by this distress they get remove from the military often with discharges that are not honorable?

Nope that happens.

So as they claim that they are doing everything that can be done, then the best course of treatment for depression and PTSD is clearly abuse. They are following long term 14 century psychological theory.

 

[ponderingturtle]

In boot camp, they have the blue card. If you become too stressed out, you can use the card and get a time-out with the sergeant talking calmly with you.

Anyway, if you find stressful situations to be too much for you, you should just avoid them. Don't sign up.

You have to be prepared to kill the enemy when ordered to do so. There is no racism, no imperialism . . . nothing but the code of Unit-Core-God-Country . . . the unit comes first. The crew is your family. If you can't live that way, by all means avoid the military.

You will be hung for treason if you disobey orders.

ANd if the situations you go through cause suicidal depression you are a wimp and should never have been in the military in the first place and killing your self would really be for the best, right?

 

[peptoabysmal]

Col. Elspeth Ritchie, psychiatry consultant to the Army surgeon general, told a Pentagon press conference that the primary reason for suicide is "failed intimate relationships, failed marriages."

She said that although the military is worried about the stress caused by repeat deployments and tours of duty that have been stretched to 15 months, it has not found a direct relationship between suicides and combat or deployments.

"However, we do know that frequent deployments put a real strain on relationships, especially on marriages. So we believe that part of the increase is related to the increased stress in relationships," she said.

"Very often a young soldier gets a 'Dear John' or 'Dear Jane' e-mail and then takes his weapon and shoots himself," she said
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070816/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/army_suicides

It doesn't appear to be the stress of combat causing the rise in incidences.

 

[Warge]

Are you serious?

Or are you just trying to be a troll?

I'm stretching it of course, but considering the huge amount of troops in Iraq, don't you think too the losses are at an all-time low?

 

[Warge]

I think we should thank Rob Lister and Warge for demonstrating exactly the problems that those with mental illnesses in the army face.

And that means exactly what?

 

[JJR]

ANd if the situations you go through cause suicidal depression you are a wimp and should never have been in the military in the first place and killing your self would really be for the best, right?

Sounds like raw Nature . . . attempting to enforce Natural Selection in the most literal way. That's usually not the goal, although I can see being that militant in a grim situation. Not so much wanting people to die, but being able to laugh when it happenes and move on.

I simply think that soldiers have to honestly want to kill the enemy, that's all. You have to be scary . . . after all, if the enemy became scared and dropped his weapon and wet himself the war would be over.

Mercenaries are running away from you. Not that scary. They are thinking about going home and playing with their new toys they are going to buy with their ill-gotten gains. On the other hand, someone defending his homeland fights as hard as 10 men . . . and will settle for nothing less than victory.

Seriously, if someone needs to "time out" (back in boot) for a while and absorb the new information, that's always okay. I can see how getting brain fried could make you want to off yourself. The point is that following the correct procedure will get the best results, and the soldier must learn this.

I'm not saying, "Resistance is futile, inferior organism" . . . I'm saying that it's my way or the highway during a critical situation. This is the best way to succede.

The mercinary thing is gone. If that is what is causing this war to go on for so long unresolved then let's clear up those clouds of doubt! Frankly, mercs should be met with the same disgust as with a recruit who is openly homosexual. Mercinaries should be considered to be demoralizing and dangerous to the moral and mental health of the unit.

DISCLAIMER: No, I don't hate Gays and think Clinton's, "Don't ask, don't tell" policy is great. Just keep it to yourself. And, yes I know we all fight for land which means we want our own land so that we can marry a hottie and have kids. There is something intrinsic with the nice, moral white picket fence motivation that is missing with the beer and ladies of the evening homecomming hedonism fantacy . .. and I really think intrinsic motivation is the superior stimulus.

Everyone's objection to the military is against Authoritarian Motivation, which the Nazis had which makes things get invented faster, but not with as much efficiency and attention to details. Obviously people need to have dreams, but if we don't want our soldiers to have moral dreams why do we make them write their parents during boot camp?

If corruption exists, it must be stamped out. I don't find corrupt people to be as obedient and efficient. Bottom line.

 

[Crossbow]

I'm stretching it of course, but considering the huge amount of troops in Iraq, don't you think too the losses are at an all-time low?

No, I most certainly do not think that losses are at an all time low!

In fact if you care to check the facts, then you would soon see that for the people who have the job of walking about and carrying a weapon in order to force the will of the USA on the people of Iraq the losses are quite high indeed.

While the total number of deaths is remarkably low, however that is due to medical technology being so very good. A better way to look at is to compare the number of combat woundings and/or psychological trauma to the number of combat troops, and this ratio is quite high indeed.

 

[JJR]

No, I most certainly do not think that losses are at an all time low!

In fact if you care to check the facts, then you would soon see that for the people who have the job of walking about and carrying a weapon in order to force the will of the USA on the people of Iraq the losses are quite high indeed.

While the total number of deaths is remarkably low, however that is due to medical technology being so very good. A better way to look at is to compare the number of combat woundings and/or psychological trauma to the number of combat troops, and this ratio is quite high indeed.

Absolutely. This war is doing nothing but agitate people and bring harm to the extended military family. I'd say that there is more than enough evidence to prove that the soldiers don't know what the hell they are even fighting for.

If we really believed in our cause, we would have suicide bombed THEM by now . .. at least once. Then, to affirm the value of a brave soldier we would have leveled the town.

Instead we sit back and use cruise missiles to level the town anyway and the same soldier gets blown up in a hellicopter from a talliban rocket while surveying the damage after the missile attack. The same thing happenes . . . the same people die . . . but our weakness and obvious lack of faith in our side only emboldenes the enemy and helps to increase their funding, resources, and capabilities.

We send the CIA to help a group of people conquer a dictator themselves, then pull out at the last minute. Bush says he wants to go nuclear . . . then things change and the idea is dropped.

Something is very wrong and needs to change. The infection is great . . . those soldiers DON'T BELIEVE IN THE COUNTRY THEY ARE FIGHTING FOR!!!

I'd say even organizing a parade is impossible with that attitude - much less participating in a war anywhere near the theatre of operations. Forget winning - even being there on time isn't likely.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Instead we sit back and use cruise missiles to level the town anyway and the same soldier gets blown up in a hellicopter from a talliban rocket while surveying the damage after the missile attack.

No

Cruise missiles being fired into Iraq ended a bit before Saddam was captured, and IIRC, before W's "Mission Accomplished" speech. A cruise missile is a particular kind of weapon, launched from a bomber, a sub, or surface ship.

A guided missile, on the other hand, like a Maverick or a Hellfire, is quite another matter. Those sorts of weapons are still in use. There are other guided munitions that combine guidance with simple gravity bombs -- i.e., no rocket motor -- that you could call a Guided Weapon, but it's not a missile, technically, but a bomb.

We send the CIA to help a group of people conquer a dictator themselves, then pull out at the last minute. Bush says he wants to go nuclear . . . then things change and the idea is dropped.

Sorry, when did Bush say he wanted to use nuclear weapons? If I missed it, please help me out here. Thanks.

Something is very wrong and needs to change. The infection is great . . . those soldiers DON'T BELIEVE IN THE COUNTRY THEY ARE FIGHTING FOR!

Do you mean the American soldiers, the various Iraqi soldiers, or the Kurds?

I'd say even organizing a parade is impossible with that attitude - much less participating in a war anywhere near the theatre of operations. Forget winning - even being there on time isn't likely.

Was this a digression?

DR

 

[JJR]

No

Cruise missiles being fired into Iraq ended a bit before Saddam was captured, and IIRC, before W's "Mission Accomplished" speech. A cruise missile is a particular kind of weapon, launched from a bomber, a sub, or surface ship.

A guided missile, on the other hand, like a Maverick or a Hellfire, is quite another matter. Those sorts of weapons are still in use. There are other guided munitions that combine guidance with simple gravity bombs -- i.e., no rocket motor -- that you could call a Guided Weapon, but it's not a missile, technically, but a bomb.

So . . . your Howard-Hues-like attention to detail aside, at the end of the day we still "carpet bomb" one town and then everything else I said happenes including the pwecious wittwe soldier getting blown up in a 'copter crash after the day's mindless bloodlust?

And, most importantly, the enemy gets emboldened from our weak visciousness and gets a bunch of new recruits?

Sorry, when did Bush say he wanted to use nuclear weapons? If I missed it, please help me out here. Thanks.

He said he wanted to use small nukes to "flush out" the terrorists hiding in those big tunnels they have over there. The same ones they theorized Osamma Bin Laden was hiding in.

Not all nukes are of the huge warhead destroy-and-irradiate-everything variety. They have little ones (nuclear "bullets") that destory just one square mile or something and they can be fired from off of a half-track.

Do you mean the American soldiers, the various Iraqi soldiers, or the Kurds?

Sadly, I meant America's soldiers. I said they are fighting for money, and I meant it. They have no faith in their cause and do not believe in America. If they were asked by the President of the United States to kill an obvious Arab terrorist with something strapped to his chest running at him they would be thinking about their own life and cash and other self-pleasuring things instead of the welfare of their Commander-in-Chief.

The President - the man who is in charge of every brave man who protects the soldier's family . . . his goddam mother, man . . . while he is away fighting for freedom. The family sleeps under the blanket of freedom provided by hardworking civil servants.

I know the President is supposed to believe that all men are created equal, but sheesh . . . I think a hardworking guy deserves some respect. I have reasons to be angry with Bush but I said it was cool that he wanted to go nuclear, and I mean it!!

Was this a digression?

DR

No, I really meant that soldiers without faith in their country can't organize a parade. They are a bunch of clowns, mate.

Clowns.

 

[JJR]

Basically, if the President points at someone and says, "Kill that man. RIGHT NOW!!" . . . and you don't do it and you are in the military . . . you have a problem with the system . . . you are low on morale . . . you don't like your job or something and it's going to cost lives.

Get out now. We don't want you.

 

[Darth Rotor]

So . . . your Howard-H ues-like attention to detail aside, at the end of the day we still "carpet bomb" one town

No, we don't. That is a falsehood.

and then everything else I said happenes including the pwecious wittwe soldier getting blown up in a 'copter crash after the day's mindless bloodlust?

No, not "mindless bloodlust." I don't think you appreciate how much restraint is exercised on a daily basis. In one day of mindless bloodlust, the American forces in Iraq, who number over one hundred thousand and have at their disposal some incredibly lethal machines, could slaughter three or four times their number without so much as batting an eye. I am glad they don't.

What is not obvious from reading the news reports is how ofter US forces don't shoot, which is most of the time.

And, most importantly, the enemy gets emboldened from our weak visciousness and gets a bunch of new recruits?

Yes, I think I understand what you are saying, and there is some substance to the problem of "not being a ruthless enough Imperium." I forget who first posited that paradox of current "American Empire," perhaps it was Ferguson, but more than one critic has suggested that if America wishes to be a successful Empire in the near term, ruthlessness needs to be added.

He said he wanted to use small nukes to "flush out" the terrorists hiding in those big tunnels they have over there. The same ones they theorized Osamma Bin Laden was hiding in.

You sure that wasn't Rummy asking for tactical nuke development? Can't read all the news, do you have a news story from the time?

Not all nukes are of the huge warhead destroy-and-irradiate-everything variety. They have little ones (nuclear "bullets") that destory just one square mile or something and they can be fired from off of a half-track.

UH, who? Tactical nukes have been taken out of the inventory for the most part, beginning in 1991 with President Bush, the elder, removing tactical nukes from Navy ships and from Europe.

Are you sure that nuclear munitions for cannon are still in the inventory? Do you have a good cite for that? I'd be interested. Are you familiar with the INF treaty?

Sadly, I meant America's soldiers. I said they are fighting for money, and I meant it. They have no faith in their cause and do not believe in America.

Falsehood. I cannot figure out where you met American servicemen who don't believe in America to come up with such a gross, and off base, generalization. As to "fighting for money" rubbish, not even going to dignify it. Had a chat with Cain on that one a few weeks ago, and I'm not interested in discussing with someone who hasn't his grasp of reality.

If they were asked by the President of the United States to kill an obvious Arab terrorist with something strapped to his chest running at him they would be thinking about their own life and cash and other self-pleasuring things instead of the welfare of their Commander-in-Chief.

Nice projection. Also, I don't think you've dealt with many Marines who served in Iraq or Afghanistan lately. If you want an interesting read, look up LTC Khan of the USMC and his work in central Afghanistan a few years ago. Funnily enough, once he and his battalion came home after being very effective fighters, he was relieved.

The President - the man who is in charge of every brave man who protects the soldier's family . . . his goddam mother, man . . . while he is away fighting for freedom. The family sleeps under the blanket of freedom provided by hardworking civil servants.

?? Care to explain the dymanics of that?

I know the President is supposed to believe that all men are created equal, but sheesh . . . I think a hardworking guy deserves some respect. I have reasons to be angry with Bush but I said it was cool that he wanted to go nuclear, and I mean it!

Who do you want to nuke, and why?

that soldiers without faith in their country can't organize a parade. They are a bunch of clowns, mate.

That would exclude the bulk of US servicemen, so who are you talking about, again?

Clowns.

From which circus?

DR

 

[Garrette]

So . . . your Howard-Hues-like attention to detail aside, at the end of the day we still "carpet bomb" one town and then everything else I said happenes including the pwecious wittwe soldier getting blown up in a 'copter crash after the day's mindless bloodlust?

???

And, most importantly, the enemy gets emboldened from our weak visciousness and gets a bunch of new recruits?

Not appearing weak is important, but is not the only factor. It must be balanced with not appearing to be genocidal and with appearing to be the better bet for the guy on the street. Stability supported by the populace lasts longer than stability brought on by the ruthlessness of an outsider.

Not all nukes are of the huge warhead destroy-and-irradiate-everything variety. They have little ones (nuclear "bullets") that destory just one square mile or something and they can be fired from off of a half-track.

Not in the US military.

Sadly, I meant America's soldiers. I said they are fighting for money, and I meant it.

This is, of course, all-pervasive, new, and unique?

They have no faith in their cause and do not believe in America.

None of them?

If they were asked by the President of the United States to kill an obvious Arab terrorist with something strapped to his chest running at him they would be thinking about their own life and cash and other self-pleasuring things instead of the welfare of their Commander-in-Chief.

They might be wondering why the CinC is standing on the battleground giving tactical orders.

The President - the man who is in charge of every brave man who protects the soldier's family . . . his goddam mother, man . . . while he is away fighting for freedom.

The oath is not to the president. It is to the constitution.

The family sleeps under the blanket of freedom provided by hardworking civil servants.

I don't think I have heard "civil servants" used to refer to the military before, but I have nothing against it. Being one myself, though, I have no problem ignoring the contributions of those other civil servants so often decried: diplomats and statesmen. Not to mention business folk who create the economic ties that do more than nearly anything to foster good relations.

I know the President is supposed to believe that all men are created equal, but sheesh . . . I think a hardworking guy deserves some respect.

???

I have reasons to be angry with Bush but I said it was cool that he wanted to go nuclear, and I mean it!!

I disagree with your position.

No, I really meant that soldiers without faith in their country can't organize a parade.

Why would they want to organize a parade if they have no faith in the country? Why would they want to even if they do? Rather self-serving, no?


ETA: Darth beat me to it, and said it better, as usual.

 

[JJR]

Basically, if the President points at someone and says, "Kill that man. RIGHT NOW!!" . . . and you don't do it and you are in the military . . . you have a problem with the system . . . you are low on morale . . . you don't like your job or something and it's going to cost lives.

Get out now. We don't want you.

All of your questions in your last post, Darth Rotor, are answered in this quote. Oh, and they would hang you if you didn't do your job.

Gonna' hang ya . . .

 

[Garrette]

All of your questions in your last post, Darth Rotor, are answered in this quote.

Not even close.

Aside from the morale issues, you haven't even touched the tactical nuke issue on which you are simply wrong.

Oh, and they would hang you if you didn't do your job.

No. Only a few things warrant execution in the military. Nonfeasance is not one of them.

Nor are all orders expected to be followed simply because they are given.

Soldiers are free to disobey illegal orders.

Commanders are free to disobey operations orders if, in the midst of the fight, they rightly determine that their superior commander's intent is better served via another method.

Are you just yanking chains for the heck of it or do you honestly have no clue?