Army Strong

[LONGTABBER PE]

Sure, you are just trying to cover for being a right wing wingnut lumbing up all opposition as deluded evil liberals.

That sounds strangely familiar- I've seen that conduct from some group out there...oh, wait a minute

got it LOL

 

[newton3376]

Oh of course! I'm not taking any of this personally!

Okay good

Neither am I....

I rarely take internet debates (or anything for that matter) too seriously....

 

[Alareth]

My Navy recruiter promised me golf, horseback riding and Olympic size swimming pools!

/me rages

 

[tyr_13]

My Navy recruiter promised me golf, horseback riding and Olympic size swimming pools!

* Alareth;5119987 rages

That's only if you get carrier duty.

 

[Garrette]

Funk de fino surrendered his/her right to my ear long ago.

Your inability to learn is therefore willful?

Perhaps you'd like to educate me about the strength of the Iraqi air force and air defenses at the time the US Shock and Awe circus.

I do not often fall for the tactic of moving goal posts. However, I do appreciate your tacit admission not only of nearly complete ignorance on the topic but also a fully complete failure to support your point.

 

[JihadJane]

Your inability to learn is therefore willful?

Funk de fino has taught me all I need to know about funk de fino, ignorance and sociopathy.

I do not often fall for the tactic of moving goal posts. However, I do appreciate your tacit admission not only of nearly complete ignorance on the topic but also a fully complete failure to support your point.

We were talking about different assaults.

However it's also hard to see how Saddam's unwilling conscripts, who were simply bulldozed alive into the Desert Storm sand like dead cows, were part of what Quad_72 claims were

one of the best militaries at the time

. At the time of Desert Storm, Iraq's forces were already heavily degraded as a result of the horrible war with Iran.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sure, you are just trying to cover for being a right wing wingnut lumbing up all opposition as deluded evil liberals.

Better known as trolling.

 

[Garrette]

Funk de fino has taught me all I need to know about funk de fino, ignorance and sociopathy.

I'm not sure about the other two, but you learned well regarding the middle topic.

We were talking about different assaults.

That's the goal post shift, JJ. You said in response to Quad's comments about Iraq having one of the best militaries in the world at the start of Desert Storm:

Are you for real ?! Iraq was virtually disarmed before the brave invaders arrived.

When I responded saying you know nothing of the subject, you came back with this:

Perhaps you'd like to educate me about the strength of the Iraqi air force and air defenses at the time the US Shock and Awe circus.

See?

First goalpost location: Strength of Iraqi Army at the start of Desert Storm

Second goalpost location: Strength of Iraqi Air Defense during Shock and Awe which was the build up to the second Gulf War, not the first

However it's also hard to see how Saddam's unwilling conscripts, who were simply bulldozed alive into the Desert Storm sand like dead cows,

Excuse me?

were part of what Quad_72 claims were.

Ask Quad. I only commented on your comment regarding the state of the Iraqi military at the start of Desert Storm. When you ask him, do everyone a favor and don't misquote or throw in unfounded tidbits like your bulldozing one above.

At the time of Desert Storm Iraq's forces were already heavily degraded as a result of the horrible war with Iran.

And now we're back to the first location of the goalposts. This is the only thing I have commented on.

Approximate size of Iraqi Army by year, using low estimates:

1981: 200,000
1985: 500,000
1991: 500,000
2003: 375,000

If I recall correctly, the 500,000 in 1991 put Iraq as the world's 6th largest military (so long as the monstrously large "paramilitaries" of some countries like Bangladesh aren't counted.

Of course, size isn't the sole, or even most important indicator of how well a military can function in war. The 500,000 in 1991 were not especially high quality except in the Republican Guard. Still, they did roll over Kuwait in short order, and they had SCUDs, and planes, and a very formidable air defense, and a strong defensive position.

In any case, perhaps you'd like to tell the soldiers who fought at 73 Easting or Medina Ridge that the Iraqi Army was worthless.

Better known as trolling.

Ah. So that's what you're doing. Got it.

 

[JihadJane]

I'm not sure about the other two, but you learned well regarding the middle topic.

Meh.

That's the goal post shift, JJ. You said in response to Quad's comments about Iraq having one of the best militaries in the world at the start of Desert Storm:

When I responded saying you know nothing of the subject, you came back with this:

See?

First goalpost location: Strength of Iraqi Army at the start of Desert Storm

Second goalpost location: Strength of Iraqi Air Defense during Shock and Awe which was the build up to the second Gulf War, not the first

There's no conspiracy. I simply overlooked the “Desert Storm” bit in Quad4_72's original comment.

Excuse me?

It was extensively reported at the time, though perhaps not where you live.

Ask Quad. I only commented on your comment regarding the state of the Iraqi military at the start of Desert Storm. When you ask him, do everyone a favor and don't misquote or throw in unfounded tidbits like your bulldozing one above.

See above. I was mistakenly talking about the Shock and Awe circus attack, not Desert Storm.

And now we're back to the first location of the goalposts. This is the only thing I have commented on.

See above

Approximate size of Iraqi Army by year, using low estimates:

1981: 200,000
1985: 500,000
1991: 500,000
2003: 375,000

If I recall correctly, the 500,000 in 1991 put Iraq as the world's 6th largest military (so long as the monstrously large "paramilitaries" of some countries like Bangladesh aren't counted.

Of course, size isn't the sole, or even most important indicator of how well a military can function in war.

Indeed.

The 500,000 in 1991 were not especially high quality except in the Republican Guard. Still, they did roll over Kuwait in short order, and they had SCUDs, and planes,

How many planes?

and a very formidable air defense

?

, and a strong defensive position.

In any case, perhaps you'd like to tell the soldiers who fought at 73 Easting or Medina Ridge that the Iraqi Army was worthless.

I didn't say that Iraq's armed forces were "worthless" (your straw man) . I was questioning Quad4_72's claim that it was "one of the best militaries at the time". Its performance clearly demonstrated that it wasn't.

Ah. So that's what you're doing. Got it.

Meh.

 

[JihadJane]

... unfounded tidbits like your bulldozing one above.

Sergeant Joe Queen:

`The sand was so soft that once the blade hits the sand it just caves in right on the sides, so we never did go back and forth. So you are traveling at five, six, seven miles an hour just moving along the trench... You don't see him. You're up there in the half hatch and you know what you got to do. You did it so much you could close your eyes and do it... I don't think they had any idea because the look on their faces as we came through the berm was just a look of shock. `While I was retreating, I saw some of the soldiers trying to surrender, but they were buried. There were two kinds of bulldozers, real ones, actual ones, and also they had tanks and they put something like a bulldozer blade in front of them. Some of the soldiers were walking towards the troops holding their arms up to surrender and the tanks moved in and killed them. They dug a hole in the ground and then they buried the soldiers and leveled it.' One survivor described the friends buried alive, who he had laughed with, eaten with ...'I really don't know how to describe it. We were friends. I ate with some of them. I talked to some of them. I cannot express how I felt at that moment..... I saw one soldier and his body was just torn apart by a bulldozer. The upper part was on one side and the lower on the other side.'

'Operation Desert Slaughter
Thoughts on Holocaust Memorial Day.'


New York Newsday of 12 September 1991, stated that three American brigades from the First Division of the Motorized Infantry “had used snowplows mounted on tanks and armored bulldozers to bury thousands of Iraqi soldiers, some still alive, along more than a hundred and twenty kilometers of trench”.

 

[LONGTABBER PE]

However it's also hard to see how Saddam's unwilling conscripts, who were simply bulldozed alive into the Desert Storm sand like dead cows, were part of what Quad_72 claims were. At the time of Desert Storm, Iraq's forces were already heavily degraded as a result of the horrible war with Iran.

Ahh, the bulldozer battle- remember it well

Saddam's unwilling conscripts

Those "unwilling" conscripts were armed and actively engaging regardless of whether they were "personally" willing to be there or not- that makes them enemy combatants

who were simply bulldozed alive into the Desert Storm sand like dead cows,

Part of an embellished story. As always, the "total" story wasnt told

First, these were armed soldiers defending a perimeter- thats called a legitimate military target any way you cut it.

They saw us coming and had about 4 hours to decide to retreat or surrender ( many units did both)

The time was because the "original" desire was to bomb them out but that would take too long- then they were just steamrolled

The vast majority retreated and surrendered- true some were in fact killed

Thats war

 

[funk de fino]

Funk de fino has taught me all I need to know about funk de fino, ignorance and sociopathy.

Low, very low. Not unexpected however. If proving you wrong toime and again is ignorance and soiciopathic then I gues it must be true. You just dont like getting shown up and have to run away.

We were talking about different assaults.

goalpost shift

However it's also hard to see how Saddam's unwilling conscripts, who were simply bulldozed alive into the Desert Storm sand like dead cows, were part of what Quad_72 claims were. At the time of Desert Storm, Iraq's forces were already heavily degraded as a result of the horrible war with Iran.

Ignorance again. Battle hardened. They had more experience of war than I or ay of the guys i served with. They had excellent airfield defences which brought down many allied aircraft and forced a rethink in how we did it. They had more tanks and also had a large airforce with many modern spec aircraft which was better than anything the UK had. You just keep on making false claims eh? They were pinging scuds into saudi and israel despite the best efforts to locate and destroy them, even right up to near the end.

 

[Garrette]

Meh.

Interesting method to demonstrate I am mistaken and that you are not, in fact, ignorant of the topic.

There's no conspiracy.

I never said there was.

I simply overlooked the “Desert Storm” bit in Quad4_72's original comment.

Okay. That happens to all of us.

It was extensively reported at the time, though perhaps not where you live.

Where I lived at the time was Fort Devens, Massachusetts with quite a few colleagues in the fight. Where I live at the moment is Baghdad. I had truly hoped you were not referring to what you are in fact referring to.

See Longtabber's response above this.

See above. I was mistakenly talking about the Shock and Awe circus attack, not Desert Storm.

See above

Okay.

Indeed.

It's a matter of presenting an argument honestly and not simply from one side. Since by your response you recognize that, then perhaps you will be so kind as to practice the method yourself. Here's a tip: Leaving out the rest of my comment is not a way to practice honest argumentation.

How many planes?

You just indicated your agreement that numbers are not the indicator. Why then do you ask now for numbers?

?

My comments regarding air defense were in reference to the first Gulf War. I stand by them.

I didn't say that Iraq's armed forces were "worthless" (your straw man) .

Fair enough. I retract.

I was questioning Quad4_72's claim that it was "one of the best militaries at the time". Its performance clearly demonstrated that it wasn't.

You need a better assessment model.

Was the Russian hockey team terrible because they lost to the US in 1980?

Meh.

Back atcha.

 

[funk de fino]

How many planes?

Around 649 attack aircraft. UK airforce has a total of all types of aircraft as of March as 693. MiG 29 are not to be sneezed at when you are in RAF fighters of the time.

They aslo had about 4,500 tanks and many scud missiles.

?

If the UK took 69 aircraft to Desert Storm and had to change tactics for attacking airfields due to high losses, then you would say it was effective. Losing 10% of your force is not good in anyones books eh?

I didn't say that Iraq's armed forces were "worthless" (your straw man) . I was questioning Quad4_72's claim that it was "one of the best militaries at the time". Its performance clearly demonstrated that it wasn't.

Thats like saying Chelsea football club are rubbish becuase they get beat by Man Utd. The force they came up against was bigger, had better planning and in some cases superior equipment. That is why they lost. Not because they were poor. Remind me what you were doing around this time that makes you the military expert?

The majority of the better troops were pulling back to defend Iraq which was not the Desert Storm point. I suspect if we had carried on at that time it would have been a whole lot more difficult than it was in 2003.

 

[LONGTABBER PE]

Where I lived at the time was Fort Devens, Massachusetts with quite a few colleagues in the fight. Where I live at the moment is Baghdad. I had truly hoped you were not referring to what you are in fact referring to.

See Longtabber's response above this.

Kewl, I was there for a while with the 10 SFGA

For those who dont know the specifics

These "trenches" were a series of earthworks similar in size to what you would see in WW I trench warfare. They varied in size from about 6-10 feet wide and probably as deep.

There were gun emplacements all over and magazine bunkers and so forth.

Also, there were about 50 odd MILES of them ( thats a LOT of "filling up")

It wasnt so much a tactical problem as it was a time problem ( impedeing mobility)

The decision was made to "punch thru" and it was at key points to keep vehicles moving- most of them were filled in but that was way after the fact by combat engineers and contractors.

As to the nuts and bolts

Armor goes in "buttoned up" and often get movement instructions by observers ( scouts) and such.

They will also kick up a dust storm and to add to it- tactical smoke

Add to that that a buttoned up track has a million BLIND SPOTS that you cannot see anything around you ( thats why they need ground guides)

Now, lets throw a little actual combat in there too and the confusion that goes with it.

You dont stop that mass of rolling steel in the middle of a shooting match and dont expect them to see every man sized target.

Also, any human being with half a brain who SEES a tank charging him from a far distance ( they saw us coming from several kilometers away- there is no way possible to "hide" an ARMOR movement in the desert- its like a tidal wave of moon dust coming right at you) and decides to "stay put" and fight is a damn fool and DESERVES to be buried.

The point is that those who got buried were few but it DID happen- nobody disputes that.

The point is that those soldiers STAYED AT THEIR POST and FOUGHT. ( lots of them didnt too)

THEY made the decision to do that.

I dont doubt for a second that as the "moment of truth" rolled up to them ( with weapons fire and all the demoralization they were experiencing as well as shell shock and all that) many of them made a "last minute' decision to give it up. ( I've seen it happen)

The problem is that in the heat of a firing charge- you dont stop to see who is surrendering versus who is "charging" or ask questions. Also from a tankers perspective ( looking thru the cupola and periscopes) he probably CANNOT SEE them to begin with.

She needs to put this in context as to how it actually went down. She wont because facts and reason arent part of her thought process.

 

[JihadJane]

Interesting method to demonstrate I am mistaken and that you are not, in fact, ignorant of the topic.

I find it hard to believe you know anything about the sordid JihadJane/funk de fino topic. See my comment re: LONGTABBER PE, below

Where I lived at the time was Fort Devens, Massachusetts with quite a few colleagues in the fight. Where I live at the moment is Baghdad. I had truly hoped you were not referring to what you are in fact referring to.

I don't know what "in fact" you are referring to. It was clear from your ignorance about Desert Storm bulldozers that you might live somewhere with a limited coverage of events.

See Longtabber's response above this.

See post 120:

I don't respond to patronizing idiocy.

... neither do I read subsequent posts by offending posters ...permanently

You just indicated your agreement that numbers are not the indicator. Why then do you ask now for numbers?

Because the number of serviceable planes available to Iraq at the time of the Shock and Awe circus was pitifully inadequate.

 

[LONGTABBER PE]

I don't know what "in fact" you are referring to. It was clear from your ignorance about Desert Storm bulldozers that you might live somewhere with a limited coverage of events.

See post 120:

Its clear from your multiple demonstrations of your ignorance regarding all things military and historical that you have no use for facts or truth. It doesnt even seem to be a factor in your process.

I actually "lived" there and in the middle of it and "my" coverage started with my 2 eyeballs- where did you get your "coverage" from?

See post 120:

In decrypted JJ speak- "I want to believe what I want to believe and promote my personal thoughs as fact despite and against all evidence to the contrary. My agenda and bias overrules my need to seek facts and information. When I am challenged with the facts and have nothing left to say- I run and hide while crying foul.

 

[Nosi]

I wonder what life is like living under a rock

You can't see but you can hear. I learned that on a National Geographic special.

 

[LONGTABBER PE]

You can't see but you can hear. I learned that on a National Geographic special.

I guess its just harder to hear when you have your fingers in your ears and yelling La La La La when people try to reason with you.

 

[foxholeatheist]

Eh, I'm on leave and would rather not talk shop but...

Civilians, shavilians. I have been medically screening detainees in Iraq for the past 3 months and I have not seen a single one in anything resembling a regular uniform belonging to anything pretending to be a legitimate military.

Hey Tabber, I may be up for selection here soon. Any advice?

 

[LONGTABBER PE]

Eh, I'm on leave and would rather not talk shop but...

Civilians, shavilians. I have been medically screening detainees in Iraq for the past 3 months and I have not seen a single one in anything resembling a regular uniform belonging to anything pretending to be a legitimate military.

Hey Tabber, I may be up for selection here soon. Any advice?

GRRRRRR LOL

Thats the 18X course? You shooting for 18D?