Army Strong

[Quad4_72]

I have it on anecdote that that is a serious problem for the us army.
The volunteer instead of draft means that a lot of the volunteers are not the sharpest ones in the drawer and that the training are adjusted for it.
It makes for specializations to an extent where doing something not included in training is more or less impossible.
Ok, some of the anecdotes stem from the difference between a small and a large military. The smaller can allow initiative at a lower level without falling apart.

Just for clarification, are you suggesting that a draft Army is better than an all volunteer Army?

 

[Toke]

Just for clarification, are you suggesting that a draft Army is better than an all volunteer Army?

Yes, absolutely.
The draft army gets a even distribution of the society, with regards to brains, politics, and educational standing. It can then "pick*" the most qualified for the jobs. The volunteer army have a sharply reduced recruitment base, and even though the recruits are far more motivated they are not representative of their society or likely to be as qualified.

*The "pick" part involves the military convincing people who would otherwise never have considered a military career that it it right for them.

 

[paximperium]

Just for clarification, are you suggesting that a draft Army is better than an all volunteer Army?

It seems like he is suggesting a smaller army with higher standards would be better than a larger army with lower standards.

Edit: It seems I was wrong...

 

[paximperium]

Yes, absolutely.
The draft army gets a even distribution of the society, with regards to brains, politics, and educational standing. It can then "pick*" the most qualified for the jobs. The volunteer army have a sharply reduced recruitment base, and even though the recruits are far more motivated they are not representative of their society or likely to be as qualified.

*The "pick" part involves the military convincing people who would otherwise never have considered a military career that it it right for them.

You can easily fix this problem by actually providing better incentives for military service. This will help with recruiting the best and brightest.

Better to have a well motivated army that is there because they want to be as opposed to those who was forced to work and don't want to be.

 

[LONGTABBER PE]

You can easily fix this problem by actually providing better incentives for military service. This will help with recruiting the best and brightest.

Better to have a well motivated army that is there because they want to be as opposed to those who was forced to work and don't want to be.

It worked for me ( and I'm no different than any other)

It paid for my BSME, MSEE and PhD

The benefits and opportunities are there- you simply have to USE them

 

[paximperium]

It worked for me ( and I'm no different than any other)

It paid for my BSME, MSEE and PhD

The benefits and opportunities are there- you simply have to USE them

I'm assuming you're an officer. How much more difficult is it for the enlisted, even NCOs to get the opportunities you had?

 

[LONGTABBER PE]

Yes, absolutely.
The draft army gets a even distribution of the society, with regards to brains, politics, and educational standing. It can then "pick*" the most qualified for the jobs. The volunteer army have a sharply reduced recruitment base, and even though the recruits are far more motivated they are not representative of their society or likely to be as qualified.

*The "pick" part involves the military convincing people who would otherwise never have considered a military career that it it right for them.

Thats not the way it works

Those who elect to "stay" go and get promoted ( lifers)

There is no attempt to represent society- its a take it or dont mentality

 

[Quad4_72]

Remains of Toxic Bullets Litter Iraq

IRAQ: BIRTH DEFECTS SPIKE DUE TO U.S. USE OF URANIUM, PHOSPHORUS

Depleted Uranium - Far Worse Than 9/11

DHCC report on Depleted Uranium

BBC News: Depleted uranium risk 'ignored'

Science Direct: Biological effects of embedded depleted uranium (DU): summary of Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute research

Institute of Medicine: Depleted Uranium

The articles you linked to showed the risks of depleted uranium inhalation (Which are obvious) but did not give any hard numbers for people affected. Plus, most of the articles were talking about the Gulf War (Which we are not discussing). On top of that, one of your links has numerous DOD and Army policies specifically outlining the medical management of people who think they may have been affected and also how to work in a contaminated site, so we are already tracking on that. In fact, this link in one of your articles directly contradicts what you are suggesting:
http://www.ha.osd.mil/asd/message2.cfm

Not to mention we don't really use depleted uranium anymore. So what was your point again?

 

[Toke]

You can easily fix this problem by actually providing better incentives for military service. This will help with recruiting the best and brightest.

Better to have a well motivated army that is there because they want to be as opposed to those who was forced to work and don't want to be.

No, the idea is to get a representative part of the population in touch with the military through the draft.
Then you retain the best through good work conditions and "general patriotic spirit".

It is not perfect, but the alternative is to get only volunteers.
Apart from career families and Rambo wannabes, you would get some who could simply not find other jobs.

I am not a soldier but have noticed that our military are very reluctant to abandon the draft, in spite of the obvious economic disadvantage in having to train a large number to retain only some.

 

[LONGTABBER PE]

I'm assuming you're an officer. How much more difficult is it for the enlisted, even NCOs to get the opportunities you had?

You assume wrong. I was a E-nothing and grunt. I am now E-8 and PhD

Imagine going to "school" being a Green Beret and going everywhere.

Hell yes it was hard- not impossible tho

 

[paximperium]

Thats not the way it works

Those who elect to "stay" go and get promoted ( lifers)

There is no attempt to represent society- its a take it or dont mentality

Isn't the Israeli Defense Force and other modern drafted armies basically like this? A core of well trained professional "lifers" and whole bunch of draftees serving their term and waiting to go back to civilian life.

Without incentives, even the best picks, don't serve beyond their term of service.

 

[Quad4_72]

Yes, absolutely.
The draft army gets a even distribution of the society, with regards to brains, politics, and educational standing. It can then "pick*" the most qualified for the jobs. The volunteer army have a sharply reduced recruitment base, and even though the recruits are far more motivated they are not representative of their society or likely to be as qualified.

*The "pick" part involves the military convincing people who would otherwise never have considered a military career that it it right for them.

Gonna have to disagree with you on that one. I would much rather have someone who is motivated and chose to be in the fight rather than someone who may be a bit smarter. The Army trains soldiers pretty good for their specific jobs, so someone being a bit smarter than another would not make that great of a difference, especially on the junior enlisted side. Their jobs don't usually involve as much thinking, just lots of practice and execution. Then the senior NCOs have the experience. Then for officers, we all have to have college degrees to be officers (Most of the time) so there is the "smart" aspect for you.

 

[LONGTABBER PE]

Isn't the Israeli Defense Force and other modern drafted armies basically like this? A core of well trained professional "lifers" and whole bunch of draftees serving their term and waiting to go back to civilian life.

Without incentives, even the best picks, don't serve beyond their term of service.

Cant say- I'm not in their Army or circumstance- I can only testify to mine

 

[Quad4_72]

No, the idea is to get a representative part of the population in touch with the military through the draft.
Then you retain the best through good work conditions and "general patriotic spirit".

It is not perfect, but the alternative is to get only volunteers.
Apart from career families and Rambo wannabes, you would get some who could simply not find other jobs.

I am not a soldier but have noticed that our military are very reluctant to abandon the draft, in spite of the obvious economic disadvantage in having to train a large number to retain only some.

You do also realize that America has the most powerful and best trained military in the world correct? Some of that may be debatable in your opinion, but we can at least agree on one of the top 5. I personally think the best So I think what we are doing is working out pretty good for us.

 

[LONGTABBER PE]

Gonna have to disagree with you on that one. I would much rather have someone who is motivated and chose to be in the fight rather than someone who may be a bit smarter. The Army trains soldiers pretty good for their specific jobs, so someone being a bit smarter than another would not make that great of a difference, especially on the junior enlisted side. Their jobs don't usually involve as much thinking, just lots of practice and execution. Then the senior NCOs have the experience. Then for officers, we all have to have college degrees to be officers (Most of the time) so there is the "smart" aspect for you.

Good Job- Way to go "SIR"

 

[back2basics]

I'm not wrong and I dont do baiting

Would you like some cheese to go with your whine?

If you have a logical thought- lets see it

No whine. But i just told you that you were wrong. You don't know me. But you are acting like you do. How is that for logic? Or do you have special powers?

Your demonization syndrome and constant defence tells me more about you than you could possibly know about me.

Thank you for your service though. I believe many countries owe American servicemen and women a lot of thanks for what they have achieved.

 

[paximperium]

You assume wrong. I was a E-nothing and grunt. I am now E-8 and PhD

Imagine going to "school" being a Green Beret and going everywhere.

Hell yes it was hard- not impossible tho

Then you would've really hated saluting this nobody Navy Reservist who was never called into active duty, just had to show up to a nice naval hospital to work a few times a year but got a nice shiny uniform.

Thanks for the service.

 

[Toke]

Gonna have to disagree with you on that one. I would much rather have someone who is motivated and chose to be in the fight rather than someone who may be a bit smarter. The Army trains soldiers pretty good for their specific jobs, so someone being a bit smarter than another would not make that great of a difference, especially on the junior enlisted side. Their jobs don't usually involve as much thinking, just lots of practice and execution. Then the senior NCOs have the experience. Then for officers, we all have to have college degrees to be officers (Most of the time) so there is the "smart" aspect for you.

This fit my anecdotal evidence on the difference between USA and Danish forces. The Danish ones start as conscripts then volunteer for service abroad, and they appear way better at thinking on their feet in a unusual situation.

Feel free to write off as nationalistic bias.

 

[Quad4_72]

Good Job- Way to go "SIR"

Haha. Thanks First (or master?) Sergeant

 

[LONGTABBER PE]

No whine. But i just told you that you were wrong. You don't know me. But you are acting like you do. How is that for logic? Or do you have special powers?

Your demonization syndrome tells me more about you than you could possibly know about me.

Thank you for your service though. I beleive many countries owe American servicemen and women a lot of thanks for what they have acheived.

Dont whine to me, I dont do it

No whine. But i just told you that you were wrong. You don't know me. But you are acting like you do. How is that for logic? Or do you have special powers?

thats why my tab says "special"- your logic has failed you and there was nothing "wrong" with what I said

Your demonization syndrome tells me more about you than you could possibly know about me.

tit for tat

Thank you for your service though. I beleive many countries owe American servicemen and women a lot of thanks for what they have acheived

you are very welcome- they all do, they just seem to forget it unless the wolf is at their door