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Army Strong

LTC8K6 said:
Sure it does. Cindy isn't all over the media now that she's protesting Barry. :D

[qimg]http://www.moonbattery.com/cindy-sheehan-media-whore.jpg[/qimg]
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Yeah, I guess she's shouldn't have burned all those bridges with FOX. She'd have a weekly spot with Glenn Beck, otherwise. Media whores need to think about these things.
 
Darth Rotor said:
You'd be wrong.
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Methinks not! The posts that you have addressed to me certainly indicate that you haven't, rather they suggest a reliance on stereotypes, preconceptions and various other perceptual and cognitve filters.

Perhaps you could visit this thread to express explicitly what you believe you have grasped. The thread was originally posted in the "Social Issues and Current Events" section as I am interested to know exactly what you think you have grasped about me. Maybe you are right. I don't know.

I am also still planning to repost the OP video with my comments on it and with comments on the comments on this thread.
 
What a completely ridiculous thread. You post a 16 minute long video without any description, your opinion, or any point whatsoever and expect people to start talking about it. Don't spam this forum. You have enough trash posts as it is.
 
Quad4_72 said:
What a completely ridiculous thread. You post a 16 minute long video without any description, your opinion, or any point whatsoever and expect people to start talking about it. Don't spam this forum. You have enough trash posts as it is.
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The OP has a title.

I didn't expect anything.

I have posted a description.

I have expressed some opinions.

Your mind-reading powas are fading.
 
Well,

I'll take the bait, and comment on this video. I am a veteran of the U.S. Army, I was a basic armor crewman on an M1-A1 Abrams. I don't believe what many of the people in this video are saying. Nobody in my little corner of the Army ever fired "indiscriminately" at civillians. In fact, many of my friends put themselves at great risk to avoid civilian casualties. Others have sustained life threatening injuries trying to protect innocent Iraqi citizens.

As far as the racial slurs go, that is something that is NOT tolerated at all. Every company in the Army is made up of people from all walks of life, races, and religions. You start using racist terms like "sand ******" when referring to to Iraqi citizens, or even enemy combatants, I can guarantee you that the African Amercan soldier in that tank next to you, in the trench next to you, is not going to tolerate that sort of language. Neither is the fellow in your platoon who happens to be a Musilm or is from Middle Eastern roots. I have handed out personally, and seen other NCO's and Officers hand out swift, and harsh punishment for using just one racial slur. Do we cuss alot, hell yes. Do we allow racial slurs in any situation-hell no.

Do civilians die in war? Unfortunately they do, but not from malice or reckless disregard of human life by 99% of the people who serve in our armed forces. Are there some bad apples in the service? There sure are, and they are dealt with swiftly, and the punishments are severe for those who violate the UCMJ.

War, is sometimes a necessary thing. It's also a terrible thing. People on both sides, as well as those caught in the middle, die. I see service members with terrible injuries at the local VA Hospital. Physical injuries, as well as the insidious, invisible wounds that take far longer to heal. PTSD can be like living in a nightmare. These men and women deserve our respect and gratitude. I find this video to be offensive, and insulting to a group of people who are some of the finest I've ever known.

L.
 
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Careyp74 said:
guys, come on, there is a serious topic here open for debate and no one is treating it with the thought it deserves.

Have you ever been on a Costa cruise, if so how does it rate to Carnival and others?
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I have sailed on the Costa Fortuna.
Costa is a brand of Carnival, they use the same ship design, only decor is different.
IMO the major difference is the language. At least on european sailings all anouncements (and there are a lot of them) are made in five languages
therefore the rescue drill lasts five time as long as usual.
Not all crew members understand or speak english.
Meals tend to be italian/international. Service can be strange. Our cabin steward didn't greet or return greeting, just staring at us. Maybe he was used to tend sheep or goats.
In some places of the ship a strange smell was present, something like a cleaning or desinfect potion spilled on the carpet.
Hope this did help you.
If you need serious advice about cruising pm me.
 
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Lupie said:
Well,

I'll take the bait, and comment on this video. I am a veteran of the U.S. Army, I was a basic armor crewman on an M1-A1 Abrams. I don't believe what many of the people in this video are saying. Nobody in my little corner of the Army ever fired "indiscriminately" at civillians. In fact, many of my friends put themselves at great risk to avoid civilian casualties. Others have sustained life threatening injuries trying to protect innocent Iraqi citizens.

As far as the racial slurs go, that is something that is NOT tolerated at all. Every company in the Army is made up of people from all walks of life, races, and religions. You start using racist terms like "sand ******" when referring to to Iraqi citizens, or even enemy combatants, I can guarantee you that the African Amercan soldier in that tank next to you, in the trench next to you, is not going to tolerate that sort of language. Neither is the fellow in your platoon who happens to be a Musilm or is from Middle Eastern roots. I have handed out personally, and seen other NCO's and Officers hand out swift, and harsh punishment for using just one racial slur. Do we cuss alot, hell yes. Do we allow racial slurs in any situation-hell no.

Do civilians die in war? Unfortunately they do, but not from malice or reckless disregard of human life by 99% of the people who serve in our armed forces. Are there some bad apples in the service? There sure are, and they are dealt with swiftly, and the punishments are severe for those who violate the UCMJ.

War, is sometimes a necessary thing. It's also a terrible thing. People on both sides, as well as those caught in the middle, die. I see service members with terrible injuries at the local VA Hospital. Physical injuries, as well as the insidious, invisible wounds that take far longer to heal. PTSD can be like living in a nightmare. These men and women deserve our respect and gratitude. I find this video to be offensive, and insulting to a group of people who are some of the finest I've ever known.

L.
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What do you find offensive about it?

What motive would veterans have to lie about their experiences, as you allege?
 
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Lupie said:
Well,

I'll take the bait, and comment on this video. I am a veteran of the U.S. Army, I was a basic armor crewman on an M1-A1 Abrams. I don't believe what many of the people in this video are saying. Nobody in my little corner of the Army ever fired "indiscriminately" at civillians. In fact, many of my friends put themselves at great risk to avoid civilian casualties. Others have sustained life threatening injuries trying to protect innocent Iraqi citizens.

As far as the racial slurs go, that is something that is NOT tolerated at all. Every company in the Army is made up of people from all walks of life, races, and religions. You start using racist terms like "sand ******" when referring to to Iraqi citizens, or even enemy combatants, I can guarantee you that the African Amercan soldier in that tank next to you, in the trench next to you, is not going to tolerate that sort of language. Neither is the fellow in your platoon who happens to be a Musilm or is from Middle Eastern roots. I have handed out personally, and seen other NCO's and Officers hand out swift, and harsh punishment for using just one racial slur. Do we cuss alot, hell yes. Do we allow racial slurs in any situation-hell no.

Do civilians die in war? Unfortunately they do, but not from malice or reckless disregard of human life by 99% of the people who serve in our armed forces. Are there some bad apples in the service? There sure are, and they are dealt with swiftly, and the punishments are severe for those who violate the UCMJ.

War, is sometimes a necessary thing. It's also a terrible thing. People on both sides, as well as those caught in the middle, die. I see service members with terrible injuries at the local VA Hospital. Physical injuries, as well as the insidious, invisible wounds that take far longer to heal. PTSD can be like living in a nightmare. These men and women deserve our respect and gratitude. I find this video to be offensive, and insulting to a group of people who are some of the finest I've ever known.

L.
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An armor guy. Good man ;) I am a 19A myself. And I agree with your post 100%
 
JihadJane said:
What do you find offensive about it?

What motive would veterans have to lie about their experiences, as you allege?
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Hello J.J,

These particular veterans have many reasons to lie about their experiences. Here's some info on one of them...

This is about PFC Clifton Hicks, who appears in the "Army Strong"/Sheehan youtube video-

http://chickenhawkexpress.blogspot.com/2007/11/how-one-ivaw-member-really-feels-about.html

PFC Hicks was a malcontent with disciplinary problems, and he has an axe to grind. If you dig into the other veterans backgrounds in this video, you will find similar facts about them as well. PFC Hicks cannot keep his stories straight, and some of them are just plain over the top crazy. He claims as a PFC basic armor crewman that he took part in "Kidnapping entire populations of men to be sent off to top secret prisons".

I started out as a PFC basic armor crewman, and I can tell you this is pure hogwash. E-3 Abrams drivers don't participate in (bogus) kidnappings and trips to secret prisons. Our military does not kidnap "entire populations" of anyone. Hicks is a liar with zero credibility, and his slandering of other good service members is extremely offensive to me, and to many others.

L.

P.S. Since his disciplinary problems are indeed verified facts that he admits to, and his status as a malcontent has been well documented, there is no "alleged" about it. It's a fact.
 
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Lupie said:
Hello J.J,

These particular veterans have many reasons to lie about their experiences. Here's some info on one of them...

This is about PFC Clifton Hicks, who appears in the "Army Strong"/Sheehan youtube video-

http://chickenhawkexpress.blogspot.com/2007/11/how-one-ivaw-member-really-feels-about.html

PFC Hicks was a malcontent with disciplinary problems, and he has an axe to grind. If you dig into the other veterans backgrounds in this video, you will find similar facts about them as well. PFC Hicks cannot keep his stories straight, and some of them are just plain over the top crazy. He claims as a PFC basic armor crewman that he took part in "Kidnapping entire populations of men to be sent off to top secret prisons".

I started out as a PFC basic armor crewman, and I can tell you this is pure hogwash. E-3 Abrams drivers don't participate in (bogus) kidnappings and trips to secret prisons. Our military does not kidnap "entire populations" of anyone. Hicks is a liar with zero credibility, and his slandering of other good service members is extremely offensive to me, and to many others.

L.

P.S. Since his disciplinary problems are indeed verified facts that he admits to, and his status as a malcontent has been well documented, there is no "alleged" about it. It's a fact.
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I can vouch for everything you are saying. You know what drivers of tanks do? Sit in their tank and drive.
 
Quad4_72 said:
An armor guy. Good man ;) I am a 19A myself. And I agree with your post 100%
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Always good to see a fellow treadhead. !9A, that's an Officer MOS for General Armor isn't it? Are you active duty now?
Driving an Abrams, and being a 19K overall was one of the most enjoyable jobs that I 've ever had.

That PFC Hicks is pathetic, as are his fellow Sheehan followers. They will say anything about anyone if they think it will further
their agenda. They're a sad bunch.

L
 
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Lupie said:
Always good to see a fellow treadhead. !9A, that's an Officer MOS for General Armor isn't it? Are you active duty now?
Driving an Abrams, and being a 19K overall was one of the most enjoyable jobs that I 've ever had.

That PFC Hicks is pathetic, as are his fellow Sheehan followers. They will say anything about anyone if they think it will further
their agenda. They're a sad bunch.

L
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Yes I am an armor officer right now on active duty (Cavalry actually but yes we are all classified as 19A). And yes those people will say anything just to further their agenda, no matter what the expense.
 
MysteryMammal said:
What's your point?

Granted, I only watched about three minutes of the video. What I got from it was, and this may come as a big shocker to some people, in war people killl other people.

I'm trying to figure out what your point is, though. Army bad? Army lies? War is hell? War stories are mostly boring? If you join the military you may be called upon to kill? Do you have a point? Am I wasting my time again?
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I may be mistaken, but the objection taken by some of the solders is they are being asked/told to break the 'rules' of war by killing civilians including children. They had spent their basic training learning these rules of war, and this caused a disconnect. It is like when a person learns to build a building safely, then is told to cut dangerous corners. It is not about fighting a war, but how one fights a war.
 
Nosi said:
I may be mistaken, but the objection taken by some of the solders is they are being asked/told to break the 'rules' of war by killing civilians including children. They had spent their basic training learning these rules of war, and this caused a disconnect. It is like when a person learns to build a building safely, then is told to cut dangerous corners. It is not about fighting a war, but how one fights a war.
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That's my impression as well.

It is interesting that the majority of the posters on this thread are so brutishly defensive against such a simple, non-threatening message.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


'Mission Accomplished'

"Shocking, honest, brave and an amazing eye-opener. Watch this movie if you really want to know what's happening in Iraq. Shows both sides of the story about the insurgency war that you won't see on TV. Critical of US policy, but sympathetic to the American soldiers on the ground. Historical movie."

Run Time - 89 Minutes

​
 
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Lupie said:
Hello J.J,

These particular veterans have many reasons to lie about their experiences. Here's some info on one of them...
This is about PFC Clifton Hicks, who appears in the "Army Strong"/Sheehan youtube video-

http://chickenhawkexpress.blogspot.com/2007/11/how-one-ivaw-member-really-feels-about.html

PFC Hicks was a malcontent with disciplinary problems, and he has an axe to grind. If you dig into the other veterans backgrounds in this video, you will find similar facts about them as well. PFC Hicks cannot keep his stories straight, and some of them are just plain over the top crazy. He claims as a PFC basic armor crewman that he took part in "Kidnapping entire populations of men to be sent off to top secret prisons".
I started out as a PFC basic armor crewman, and I can tell you this is pure hogwash. E-3 Abrams drivers don't participate in (bogus) kidnappings and trips to secret prisons. Our military does not kidnap "entire populations" of anyone. Hicks is a liar with zero credibility, and his slandering of other good service members is extremely offensive to me, and to many others.

L.

P.S. Since his disciplinary problems are indeed verified facts that he admits to, and his status as a malcontent has been well documented, there is no "alleged" about it. It's a fact.
Click to expand...

I would like to further add to your 100% correct commentary as one who has been on "Haji Hunting" opns and had the virtue of also being a tanker ( first MOS off of AD was 19E in the Guard [ yeah I know I'm dating myself there but I did qualify for Master gunner LOL]) ( spend a whole AT getting MOS'Qd)

Tankers dont do anything but Armor operations. I have never seen an ARTEP or Tank Table involving a tank crew doing anything regarding dismounted operations. They dont have the training or skills for such.

Besides, where would a tanker put them? They tell me the M1 has more room than the 60-A3 but they would have to transport them on the bussle rack.

Now speaking for the "secret squirrel" and SQWT side- what about these "kidnappings" and "secret prisons"?

These "secret prisons" are not prisons but HESCO walled camps where detainees or people of interest are held ( and the majority released) when they are rounded up.

Kidnapping is a misnomer because technically "kidnapping" is taking by force without consent so in war, EVERYONE captured would be "technically" kidnapped.

The key is the how and why they are taken in the first place. The reasons vary.

Some are a result of intelligence, some are turned in by the village elders, some come from other prisoner intelligence and direct contact.

There is some truth in taking all males in a village- thats a fact but theres a reason for it.

The Taliban/ Al Queida are NOT a uniformed army and as such have no respect or adherence to the Geveva or Hague conventions or any of the recognized Laws of Warfare. They also have civilian sympathizers who hide and cover for them. They also commit terrorist acts against villagers who are forced to hide/feed them under penalty of death. ( CNN doesnt tell you about the innocent villagers about those who refuse to help them or get involved that are kidnapped in the night and a letter comes to the wife telling her where to go to get the headless corpse)

They also will dress and mingle with the locals to avoid capture. You round them up in mass for several reasons.

1) you dont know who is or is not Taliban

2) Civilians who are not Taliban proper will take up arms for their cause ( he becomes a combatant the moment he does)

3) you do it for the SAFETY of the villagers.

Heres what happens ( this is real world, not a made up example)

You have Taliban Joe in a village ( they know who they are) and taliban Joe "knows" who knows him and his presence,activities. ( Call them villager Jimmy and Jane)

Taliban Joe gets captured or killed. Taliban Joe's friends also know who knew. They will come in and kill Jane and Jimmy, maybe their whole family and if they are in a pissy mood- the neighbors too for good measure just to make sure they got anyone who MIGHT have outed their fellow. They dont spend 1 second of their time concerning themselves with fact finding to see if anyone actually did anything ( or not)- its just easier for them to go on a killing rampage to "send the message" to the masses. ( its a VERY effective message and the masses get it LOUD and CLEAR)

The mass round ups are often used for the above reasons.
 
Nosi said:
I may be mistaken, but the objection taken by some of the solders is they are being asked/told to break the 'rules' of war by killing civilians including children. They had spent their basic training learning these rules of war, and this caused a disconnect. It is like when a person learns to build a building safely, then is told to cut dangerous corners. It is not about fighting a war, but how one fights a war.
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Thats more media hype than reality- no different than in Vietnam.

No one is "told or asked" to break the Laws of War. That would be an UNLAWFUL order and disobeyed. ( not to mention prosecuted under the UCMJ if it were ever proven)

Heres what does happen tho. ( it causes the stress mentioned)

The Taliban are ruthless and have no moral recognized values that "we" consider normal. ( a good distinction would be between the uniformed professional German soldier compared to the hard core Nazi SS)

Their religion and culture reinforce a completely different set of values.

If they are wounded, they will save their dying breath to shoot a soldier. ( thus resulting in "double tapping"[ practice of killing a wounded soldier or putting a "security shot" into one to "make sure"] where against a different enemy- that wouldnt happen)

They also boobytrap bodies/wounded where they blow up during recovery. ( ours and theirs)

They also recruit ( some volunteer- some by force such as threatening to kill their family[ its not an empty threat either]) both women and children to fight as well as pack IED's. We had many casualties in Iraq at FOB Anaconda when a kid went into a DFAC with an IED in a backpack.

Its not about surrendering values or cutting corners- its about fighting what amounts to a "ghost" enemy that can be a man,woman or child in any given scenario.

If the Taliban would "fight" in a civilized manner ( a true contradiction in terms) ( traditional armies against traditional armies on a battlefield) then this war would have been over in about 30 days. Thats not how they do it and it forces us to fight them on their terms.
 
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