Arizona shooter pleads not guilty

[Mycroft]

I have thought of that and will donate a portion to charity.

Good idea, but raise the prices a bit first.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I was under the assumption, before this attack, that being severally mentally ill automatically made you ineligible for trial. But then I read about Jeffrey Dahmer, Colin Fergeson, and David Berkowitz, and discovered this is simply not true. Mentally ill people, even severally mentally ill, can indeed stand trial for murder.

Yes. The issue you're thinking of is incompetence. If you're found mentally incompetent, you can't be tried unless and until you are found competent. (But you also don't have to be released!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competency_evaluation_(law)

 

[Thunder]

Yes. The issue you're thinking of is incompetence. If you're found mentally incompetent, you can't be tried unless and until you are found competent. (But you also don't have to be released!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competency_evaluation_(law)

so one can be found competent to stand trial, and yet not guilty of the charges due to mental illness?

got it.

now, what is your opinion of this statement regarding Loughner, made in another thread:

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth
And you can't tell that this guy is legally not culpable for his actions?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

so one can be found competent to stand trial, and yet not guilty of the charges due to mental illness?

got it.

Sort of. I don't think there's any specific mental illness that will get you a not guilty verdict. (While the "insanity defense" might depend on the evidence of a mental illness, it's not at all the same thing.)

At any rate, for one thing, the issues are about the mental state of the accused at two different points in time--during trial or during commission of the act he is accused of.

For another, it's a different standard: being able to understand the proceedings enough to participate (and consult with your lawyer) vs being able to understand that one's actions are right or wrong. And, as mentioned, insanity can also be a mitigating factor (resulting in reduced sentence but not a not guilty verdict).

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

now, what is your opinion of this statement regarding Loughner, made in another thread:

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth [qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif[/qimg]
And you can't tell that this guy is legally not culpable for his actions?

I'm not too sure how to sort out the negatives or parse the verb "tell" (maybe it's missing a word such as "me"? I'm not sure if it means "You can't tell me" or "One can't discern").


IMO, Lougher is legally culpable for his actions. Even if he were to win a not guilty by reason of insanity verdict (and from what little I know of the facts of the case, I don't think he can do this), he would still be considered a danger to himself and others and not allowed to go free.

Again, the fact that I don't think he should win by using an insanity defense doesn't mean I don't think he's mentally ill. I think he is mentally ill. So are alcoholics and addicts, but they're still "legally culpable" for their actions.

The legal idea of "insanity" and the psychological or psychiatric idea of "mentally ill" are two different things.

 

[Biscuit]

Good idea, but raise the prices a bit first.

Don't worry! If any of those lamestream media types with their leftist attitudes and commie berets come into my shop they will be charged double!

 

[Bill Thompson]

Thunder,

What is the deal with sexualizing people who you disagree with? "Tea Baggers"? You cannot argue with them logically so you have to attack them personally.

 

[Bill Thompson]

This makes it hard for me to believe that Loughner is too long out to lunch to be convicted.

There is no logical connection between any of your statements.

You mean there is no logical connection that you can see. I might have left out some baby steps because I was in a hurry when I made my post.

If you watch that video you can see how illogical the Libeal point of view is. I have watched the Arazona's shooter's videos on youtube and he makes simular arguments about society that a liberal would. If he is crazy, the average liberal is crazy.

Got it? Do you understand now?

 

[dtugg]

Dude, you're the guy who thought that the snow in a Walmart commercial that a kid wished for his dad to have was nuclear fallout. You are the last person who can speak about logic.

 

[kellyb]

I have watched the Arazona's shooter's videos on youtube and he makes simular arguments about society that a liberal would. If he is crazy, the average liberal is crazy.

Got it? Do you understand now?

Are you for real?

You think "liberals" believe that our currency is fraudulent because we left the gold standard and that the government engages in mind control via linguistics?

 

[Thunder]

If you watch that video you can see how illogical the Liberal point of view is. I have watched the Arazona's shooter's videos on youtube and he makes simular arguments about society that a liberal would.

Loughner believes in stronger gun control, abortion rights, higher taxes for the rich, universal health care, affirmative action, is against the death penalty, and wants more clean energy and higher-education grants and loans?

 

[Biscuit]

Are you for real?

You think "liberals" believe that our currency is fraudulent because we left the gold standard and that the government engages in mind control via linguistics?

We don't? Um we need to have a meeting because thats exactly why I voted for Obama.

 

[kellyb]

We don't? Um we need to have a meeting because thats exactly why I voted for Obama.

Shhhh! It's supposed to be a secret!

 

[Suddenly]

so one can be found competent to stand trial, and yet not guilty of the charges due to mental illness?

got it.

The easy example would someone who goes on a raging psychotic episode after being deprived of his meds commits a crime, and then once medicated was competent to stand trial.

 

[Biscuit]

I was talking to a criminal defense attorney who believes he will be found guilty but insane like the Unibomber and sent to a mental ward for the rest of his life.

 

[dtugg]

I was talking to a criminal defense attorney who believes he will be found guilty but insane like the Unibomber and sent to a mental ward for the rest of his life.

1) The federal government does not have a verdict of "guilty but insane" (Arizona does though).
2) The Unabomber plead guilty to avoid the needle and is now spending his days locked in his cell for 23 hours/day at ADX Florence.

 

[daredelvis]

I have thought of that and will donate a portion to charity.

My office window is down the street from the TIRR Memorial Hermann Rehabilitation Hospital where she was transported to today. There were over 12 news vans parked in up and down the street last week, still about 6 camped out today and helicopters circling this morning. They had to set up port-a-potties for the news media. I can't imagine what a circus the trial will be.


Daredelvis

 

[Weak Kitten]

I have thought of that and will donate a portion to charity.

Don't forget to advertise that you are donating a portion of your proceeds to charity. You might even get some free publicity during the slow parts of he trial!

On the trial, I just hope they put him away somewhere where he can't hurt anyone ever again. Sane or not, this person should not be allowed a second chance. I'm all for forgiveness but I can't forgive someone who fires at random into a crowd of innocent people.

 

[dtugg]

Don't forget to advertise that you are donating a portion of your proceeds to charity. You might even get some free publicity during the slow parts of he trial!

On the trial, I just hope they put him away somewhere where he can't hurt anyone ever again. Sane or not, this person should not be allowed a second chance. I'm all for forgiveness but I can't forgive someone who fires at random into a crowd of innocent people.

I think that is pretty much guaranteed. The only question is if he gets the needle, serves a life sentence in prison, or spends the rest of his life in a looney bin. If he is found not guilty by reason of insanity in federal court, he probably won't ever get out of the looney bin. But if for some inexplicable reason the fed let him out Arizona can still charge him for all the murders. The best he could hope for is a verdict of guilty but insane in which case he would go to a looney bin until declared sane and then he would go straight to prison where he would die.

Sent from my Samsung Epic 4G using Tapatalk

 

[Biscuit]

1) The federal government does not have a verdict of "guilty but insane" (Arizona does though).
2) The Unabomber plead guilty to avoid the needle and is now spending his days locked in his cell for 23 hours/day at ADX Florence.

Ah. The defense attorney was wrong and I shall inform him of such.