Are You Spiritual?

[Pup]

Now, when you say ""the human brain evolved to produce consciousness"" my problem with that concept is that it proposes that the human brain was designed for a purpose.

No, I don't see that it does, but regardless, that's not what I meant. Assume that I agree with the basic way evolution is understood to work today by mainstream scientists: creatures whose brain produced some basic form of consciousness survived to reproduce better those who didn't, and therefore were more apt to pass on that trait. There was/is no plan, no design, no purpose, no method, other than environmental pressure.

Your struggle with the word transcend also is linked with your struggle with the concept of 'spiritual' and 'what is prayer' where-as I have no problem with these as concepts.

That's phrased in an insulting way.

I am not "struggling" with the words because my understanding is inferior to yours. I'm saying that those words have different meanings to different people in different contexts, and I don't know which of the many meanings you're using.

Of course you have no problem with the words, because you know which meaning you're using.

That doesn't make you better or smarter or in a position to act like an enlightened teacher talking to someone who needs schooled.

If I used the words, I'd also have no problem knowing what I meant by them. Everybody knows what definition they're using, for the words that they choose themselves.

I agree with that but would like to add this:

"Normal brain function in relation to Consciousness."

Okay... That seems redundant, so I'm suspicious why it needs added, but okay...

As to your last statement, I think for now that is better put on the shelf as you don't know what I am saying and I don't know how to say it differently so that you can understand...so I think it would distract at the moment and can be looked at later if things unfold that way.

Fair enough.

From the other post:

Perhaps then I can make the suggestion that you put aside your *suspicions and watch the video and note the way it makes you feel and if that feeling is related to an agreement with both Carl and myself in relation to whether you agree that Carl and I are saying the same thing, and do you agree with that and also do you agree with what we are saying?

*I agree not to use language as a form of 'gotcha' etc...

Not interested in putting aside my suspicions, because so far they seem well founded. See my reply above starting "That's phrased in an insulting way..."

 

[Navigator]

No, I don't see that it does, but regardless, that's not what I meant. Assume that I agree with the basic way evolution is understood to work today by mainstream scientists: creatures whose brain produced some basic form of consciousness survived to reproduce better those who didn't, and therefore were more apt to pass on that trait. There was/is no plan, no design, no purpose, no method, other than environmental pressure.



That's phrased in an insulting way.

I am not "struggling" with the words because my understanding is inferior to yours. I'm saying that those words have different meanings to different people in different contexts, and I don't know which of the many meanings you're using.

Of course you have no problem with the words, because you know which meaning you're using.

That doesn't make you better or smarter or in a position to act like an enlightened teacher talking to someone who needs schooled.

If I used the words, I'd also have no problem knowing what I meant by them. Everybody knows what definition they're using, for the words that they choose themselves.



Okay... That seems redundant, so I'm suspicious why it needs added, but okay...



Fair enough.

From the other post:



Not interested in putting aside my suspicions, because so far they seem well founded. See my reply above starting "That's phrased in an insulting way..."

Okay well I will say that it wasn't meant to be insulting and that my attempt to say how I am seeing your direction is also based upon our interactions in other threads (which are actualities) and I assumed you would know this, so we need to take into account our interactions, not just in this thread but as they are unfolding in reality - inclusive of other threads.

It is important of course that you say how it makes you feel so that I can attempt to adjust my own approach but it is also is a matter of your being able to adjust as well.

It is not about trying to appear smarter.

I am not trying to be smarter than you.

I would say that the struggle - if we truly are both trying to get on the same page, is a mutual thing.

This is indeed,the struggle.

 

[Navigator]

What Is Spirituality

Carl Sagan - Pale Blue Dot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1GV8M

I think that what Carl says in this short video is on par with 'what is spirituality' not just in what he is saying, but in applying what he is saying as an individual experiencing a life time, here on this 'pale blue dot'.

There are many other examples from a variety of sources, but certainly this one is a good example of being spiritual.

From Carl's commentary in this video:

"It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known."

-- Carl Sagan (1934-1996)

The real spiritual bit I see, I have underlined.

That bit is not 'woo-woo'. It is potentially common sense, a beautiful thing to support and for that, Spiritual in nature.

 

[sowhat]

Carl Sagan - Pale Blue Dot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1GV8M

From Carl's commentary in this video:

"It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known."

-- Carl Sagan (1934-1996

If we could only do that.

 

[JaysonR]

We could if we could super-blast the world with a neurological bomb that impacted everyone with the same emotional gravity simultaneously...at least; in theory.

 

[Navigator]

If we could only do that.

Well sowhat, you can do that. You can be kind to others and you can do what you can to support preserving what we all have together.
So can I and so can most people who are in the fortunate position of being able to do more than simply exist, ‘hand to mouth’ as it were.

 

[Navigator]

I very recently watched a program on TV which had to do with anthropology and a culture which built a system of buildings which exemplified their Spiritual way of thinking.

This system of buildings was unearthed and the site is said to be dated well before the pyramids of Egypt were built.

Watching this reminded me of this thread and how it is unfolding.


I don't know if the link will give you access to the video, but you might be able to find it on youtube...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01971gm

 

[JaysonR]

I very recently watched a program on TV which had to do with anthropology and a culture which built a system of buildings which exemplified their Spiritual way of thinking.

This system of buildings was unearthed and the site is said to be dated well before the pyramids of Egypt were built.

Watching this reminded me of this thread and how it is unfolding.


I don't know if the link will give you access to the video, but you might be able to find it on youtube...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01971gm

I hadn't heard of this, thank you!

 

[Navigator]

I hadn't heard of this, thank you!

No problem JasonR, hopefully you can find the program and I am sure you will enjoy it as much as I did.

Maybe we can talk more about it together after you have seen it.

 

[sowhat]

Well sowhat, you can do that. You can be kind to others and you can do what you can to support preserving what we all have together.
So can I and so can most people who are in the fortunate position of being able to do more than simply exist, ‘hand to mouth’ as it were.

Yes I can, and presumably, so can you, but there are six billion of us.
As any of us who ever played with blocks as a child know; its a lot easier to knock things down than it is to build them up. It doesn't take much to screw things up.
I do believe we are making progress though. I've been on this planet for a long time, and, despite the daily headlines, I think we are living in the best times that humans have ever known.

 

[Navigator]

Yes I can, and presumably, so can you, but there are six billion of us.
As any of us who ever played with blocks as a child know; its a lot easier to knock things down than it is to build them up. It doesn't take much to screw things up.
I do believe we are making progress though. I've been on this planet for a long time, and, despite the daily headlines, I think we are living in the best times that humans have ever known.

Yes you are right, but the reality is the only power we have is our personal power to do what we can if we want, which may or may not encourage others to do similar, but generally if we treat each other with respect and are kind then this attracts similar behavior from others.

I think your observations are correct that things are getting better.

EDIT: On Loving Kindness:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151484191080450

 

[Navigator]

We could if we could super-blast the world with a neurological bomb that impacted everyone with the same emotional gravity simultaneously...at least; in theory.

I googled "neurological bomb" - there doesn't appear to be such a thing

I think that some people will get it and others will ignore it.
How this works out for the majority of the population remains to be seen, but I am certain that there is a branch of Human Consciousness which is well prepared to survive and prosper unaffected should the majority choose to travel the path of 'worst case scenarios.'

Bottom line, as individuals we have choice and we can help or hinder human expressions towards better or best case scenarios through our own expression of behavior.

 

[tsig]

I googled "neurological bomb" - there doesn't appear to be such a thing

I think that some people will get it and others will ignore it.
How this works out for the majority of the population remains to be seen, but I am certain that there is a branch of Human Consciousness which is well prepared to survive and prosper unaffected should the majority choose to travel the path of 'worst case scenarios.'

Bottom line, as individuals we have choice and we can help or hinder human expressions towards better or best case scenarios through our own expression of behavior.

Human Consciousness is independent of the majority of humans?

 

[Navigator]

Human Consciousness is independent of the majority of humans?

"A branch of Human Consciousness..."

 

[punshhh]

"A branch of Human Consciousness..."

I was thinking about what it is to be spiritual and came to the conclusion that agency is the key. As such it is limited to life forms and life forms having agency are spiritual by nature.

 

[Navigator]

I was thinking about what it is to be spiritual and came to the conclusion that agency is the key. As such it is limited to life forms and life forms having agency are spiritual by nature.

Can you tell me a bit more about 'agency' please punshhh.

 

[punshhh]

Can you tell me a bit more about 'agency' please punshhh.

Well I am thinking of an entity which acts and has the capacity to alter its action in some way. I draw the comparison with consciousness, which is similarly present in such an entity.

By acting it falls within the sphere of entities which have a capacity, or at least a potential, to affect the status quo in their environment.
To be constructive or destructive, or in religious parlance the potential to do either good or bad.

 

[Navigator]

Well I am thinking of an entity which acts and has the capacity to alter its action in some way. I draw the comparison with consciousness, which is similarly present in such an entity.

By acting it falls within the sphere of entities which have a capacity, or at least a potential, to affect the status quo in their environment.
To be constructive or destructive, or in religious parlance the potential to do either good or bad.

So are you saying that the entity is somehow different from the consciousness of said entity?

 

[punshhh]

So are you saying that the entity is somehow different from the consciousness of said entity?

the entity has qualities of which one is consciousness. It is a quality intimate to and essential for life, but distinct from the "I"of the entity, which is better described as Atman, for lack of more specific terminology.

 

[dlorde]

Can you tell me a bit more about 'agency' please punshhh.

Well I am thinking of an entity which acts and has the capacity to alter its action in some way. I draw the comparison with consciousness, which is similarly present in such an entity.

So bacteria are conscious agents?

What about viruses?

What about a molecule of haemoglobin?

What about a hydrogen radical?