Are Rape "Victims" Immune to Skepticism

[crimresearch]

He exposure. was caused by the internet rather than the media.

If you want an example of lack of skeptisism, try the Kenny Curse thread that talks about Mike Kennedys rape allegation.

The Same Kennedy whose last rape trial ended with an acquittal because one of the jurors told the press that "he was just too good looking" to have done it?

 

[epepke]

Are you talking about the same Kobe Bryant case where the media has released the victim's name, picture, personal details etc. while constantly referring to her as the 'alleged victim'?

Is that the one in which the media has released Kobe Bryant's name, picture, and personal details etc. while constantly referring to him as the 'alleged perpetrator'?

And does it happen in a country where trials are public and defendants have a right to face the accuser?

Maybe England has a better idea: keep the accused and the prosecutrix secret until after the trial.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Maybe England has a better idea: keep the accused and the prosecutrix secret until after the trial.

But that's problematic as well: it might cause witnesses to not come forward. If you're watching the news and see a guy is charged with raping someone at noon on April 3, and you saw that guy a thousand miles away at that time, you would come forward and testify. What if the accuser is known to you, and you overheard her talking about "setting up a frame for a lot of money"? To be fair, justice has to be public. If that sometimes has harsh consequences for the parties involved....well, isn't the alternative worse?

 

[crimresearch]

Is that the one in which the media has released Kobe Bryant's name, picture, and personal details etc. while constantly referring to him as the 'alleged perpetrator'?

And does it happen in a country where trials are public and defendants have a right to face the accuser?

Maybe England has a better idea: keep the accused and the prosecutrix secret until after the trial.

I really hate to break this to you, but the 'Rape Shield' laws aren't put there to shield the accused.
They are there to encourage rape victims (who have historically been intimidated by the thought of negative publicity, into remaining silent about their victimization), into coming forward.

The shield for the accused is the doctrine of presumed innocence.

And the fact that both shields are being routinely ignored by the media is something that only the media can control...obviously , they have made their choice.

 

[epepke]

But that's problematic as well: it might cause witnesses to not come forward. If you're watching the news and see a guy is charged with raping someone at noon on April 3, and you saw that guy a thousand miles away at that time, you would come forward and testify. What if the accuser is known to you, and you overheard her talking about "setting up a frame for a lot of money"? To be fair, justice has to be public. If that sometimes has harsh consequences for the parties involved....well, isn't the alternative worse?

Absolutely. There is no perfect solution to this problem. No matter how you arrange it, there are going to be errors made. Yet I still think that, in threads like this, there is evidence of enough people so sure of guilt based on what they've read, that the US way of doing things works out pretty well.

I mean, come on! Blood on somebody's shirt? Have we not heard of menstruation, kiddies? I can remember a night spent in the Governor's Suite at some hotel in Georgia which left the bed looking like John Wayne Bobbitt's bedroom. Roger Corman could have used it as a set. Of course, I spent enough for the room, and I left a $20 tip. I used to maintain a special red towel expressly for the purpose. I'm older now, and so the women in my appropriate age cohort don't have exactly the same quantity of "crimson tide," but still.

[edited to add] The last time I mentioned menstruation, the thread got hidden on the grounds it was too graphic. I'm interested to see what will happen to this one.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I can remember a night spent in the Governor's Suite at some hotel in Georgia which left the bed looking like John Wayne Bobbitt's bedroom.

Uh......I'm speechless. And utterly, utterly grateful for my Y chromosome.

 

[Dancing David]

This was certainly true in the past; not sure if it's still true.

I'm concerned that it's a backlash against this historical injustice that causes a fiasco like the Kobe trial to so much as take place. Fortunately, the judge seems to be thoroughly aware of the (apparent) prosecutorial overreach.

Having participated in many debates where the victim is blamed for rape, I assue you that the conventions still hold.

"She asked for it" by:
getting in the car
dressing provocatively
going to his apartment
inviting him to her apartment

are still commonly made statements.

 

[Dancing David]

Indeed. There's an inherent bias in the system against the victims of crimes, which makes it harder for them to find justice by convicting the perpetrator--thank God.

It's known as the "guilty beyound reasonable doubt" principle.

Ah, you so cute! Too bad you can't understand anything that doesn't start with liberal guilt and ends with your hatred of Arabs.

The societal shame of the rape victims is similar to people blaming the holocaust on the Elders of Zion, so clean your heart you smarmy jerk.

 

[crimresearch]

Ah, you so cute! Too bad you can't understand anything that doesn't start with liberal guilt and ends with your hatred of Arabs.

The societal shame of the rape victims is similar to people blaming the holocaust on the Elders of Zion, so clean your heart you smarmy jerk.

Uhhhmmm...

THAT had to be one of the clumsiest attempts at a thread derailment of all time....

 

[Whoracle]

You don't have to be rich for women to falsely accuse you of rape. Many bitches will do it just to get back at you for something. Rape is a terrible crime, but the real horror are the women making false accusations who are not only ruining the lives of the men they accuse, but also the lives of many actual rape victims because now most are being looked at as the boy who cried wolf.

 

[Tanja]

I work with victims of crime, including rape victims. Most rape victims I saw were raped by acquaintances/ friends/ relatives/ dates rather than strangers.

Rape victims are in general among the most traumatised of all victims we work with. It destroys the victim's confidence and trust in people, it ruins one's ability to enjoy sex in the future, it often ruins marriages and relationships, it labels the victim even in the Western world (not to mention the extent to which it ruins their life in some non western cultures, where rape victims are viewed as "damaged goods").

Rape victim have among the highest rates of PTSD of all victims, and by far the highest rate of suicide. (I can quote studies that investigated the rate of suicide in rape victims, but I am moving houses this weekend and all my books are packed in boxes. Appologies for that.)

As for false accusations, they happen with other crimes as well. I see sometimes dodgy and likely made up accusations of harassment, threats etc. There are some of rape as well, but not any more than of other crimes. I think that the police estimates of the percentage of false accusations of rape do not differ from those of false accusations of other crime.

 

[Whoracle]

A false accusation isn't going to ruin your life nearly as much as being sent away for a rape you didn't commit will.

 

[Tanja]

Do you think many people are sent away for rapes they did not commit? As far as I know, one's guilt needs to be proven beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law. Only then is the person "sent away".

Only about 2 or 3 percent of rape cases reported to the police result in a conviction. It is a crime with probably the smallest conviction rate.

If your belief that there are many men in prison who were falsely accused of rape is based on personal experience, or of someone you know, I am really sorry to hear it, in the same way I would be sorry to hear that anyone was falsely convicted of any other crime. But I really do not know on what you base your idea that there are scores of innocent people in prison falsely convicted of rape.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Do you think many people are sent away for rapes they did not commit? As far as I know, one's guilt needs to be proven beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law. Only then is the person "sent away".

Only about 2 or 3 percent of rape cases reported to the police result in a conviction. It is a crime with probably the smallest conviction rate.

If your belief that there are many men in prison who were falsely accused of rape is based on personal experience, or of someone you know, I am really sorry to hear it, in the same way I would be sorry to hear that anyone was falsely convicted of any other crime. But I really do not know on what you base your idea that there are scores of innocent people in prison falsely convicted of rape.

I have no opinion on this one either way (and I'm not sure how you could have an informed opinion about it, even in theory). But the facts you list above are neither here nor there.

The fact that rape has a tiny conviction rate is not evidence either way. The important rate is the rate of successful false convictions out of false accusations, compared to alternative false accusations. If making a false accusation of rape is more likely to get the target jailed than a false accusation of something else, then you'd expect people to try it relatively often.

I suspect, although I cannot show, that accusing a man of rape is probably a better bet as a false accusation than most. It's relatively hard to disprove a rape claim if the claimant has their story straight, and while in theory a conviction requires proof beyond reasonable doubt in practise juries can and do make bum judgements based on prejudice and gut feeling.

This is of course, exactly the reason why it's so damnably hard to give real rapists their come-uppance. It's very hard to prove a rape claim if the defendant keeps their story straight. If it comes down to one person's word against another's, that's almost always reasonable doubt right there.

 

[Dancing David]

Uhhhmmm...

THAT had to be one of the clumsiest attempts at a thread derailment of all time....

Not derailment I say, but certainly me being a Drama King!

Perhaps I would have been better spoken to draw a line between 'societal' as the group behaviors of individuals in aggreaget as opposed to the judicial system of a society. My point was meant more towards the moo cow mentatlity of condemning victims as opposed to judicial protocol.

 

[Dancing David]

A false accusation isn't going to ruin your life nearly as much as being sent away for a rape you didn't commit will.

Care to back that up with any numbers? The number of false accusations of rape is likely to be very low.

1. Victims rarely come forward especialy when the perpetrator is a family memeber or friend.
2. The ability to prosecute rape is very limited, given the nature of our judicialsystem, an accustation based solely upon a victimks statement is very rare.
3. Convictions are very rare.

So while the consequences of a false accusation are very severe, what about the fact that most rapist don't get charged much less convicted.

Why are people so afraid of being falsely charged with rape? Is is no different than being falsely charged with any crime, false convictions for murder are much more common.

The effects of being charged with any crime are very strong, but very rarely have I seen it mentioned on this board except for rape.

 

[Dancing David]

Many bitches will do it just to get back at you for something.

Are you afraid to call women, women?

Do you accuse men of rape because you want to get even with them?

Souinds like Urban Legend to me!

I suupose the use of rape as a threat and retaliation is imaginary too? What eveidence do you have that women charge rape just to get even with someone?

 

[Whoracle]

Are you afraid to call women, women?

Women who falsely accuse men of rape are not women, they are bitches who belong in jail themselves. If it makes you feel better since you've obviously given up your balls, I'd feel the same way about men. Anyway I'm not saying it's a huge problem, but if you're denying it happens at all you are simply a fool. I'm not saying it's very common, but it happens, and the fact that it does happen casts doubt on the women making legitimate charges.

 

[Tanja]

Women who falsely accuse men of rape are not women, they are bitches who belong in jail themselves. If it makes you feel better since you've obviously given up your balls, I'd feel the same way about men. Anyway I'm not saying it's a huge problem, but if you're denying it happens at all you are simply a fool. I'm not saying it's very common, but it happens, and the fact that it does happen casts doubt on the women making legitimate charges.

Some people falsely report theft in order to try and claim money from their insurance. Some people falsely report harassement to get back to neighbours who have been playing music too loud. Some people falsely report assault when someone they attacked first tries to defend him or herself. Some people falsely report numerous crimes to get some attention. Yes, some women do falsely report rape.

Because of the possibility that a reported crime was made up, and for various other reasons, reported crimes are investigated. If there is sufficient evidence, charges are pressed. If the crime is proven beyond reasonable doubt, the perpetrator is convicted. The convicted person can also appeal against the decision, especially if there is any new evidence that proves their innocence.

What was you problem again?

 

[crimresearch]

Some people falsely report theft in order to try and claim money from their insurance. Some people falsely report harassement to get back to neighbours who have been playing music too loud. Some people falsely report assault when someone they attacked first tries to defend him or herself. Some people falsely report numerous crimes to get some attention. Yes, some women do falsely report rape.

Because of the possibility that a reported crime was made up, and for various other reasons, reported crimes are investigated. If there is sufficient evidence, charges are pressed. If the crime is proven beyond reasonable doubt, the perpetrator is convicted. The convicted person can also appeal against the decision, especially if there is any new evidence that proves their innocence.

What was you problem again?

And some people think that bitches make false claims of rape in order to get back at men, because that's what they would do, if only they were women.

I'm only sayin'...