Are newborn babies atheist?

You continue to misunderstand. There is no reason to bring a C&R position into this at all. (If you read the thread, you will have noted that I find the C&R position lacking--it only works one god at a time, and by presupposing the religious position. How many people have truly considered every god?)
This seems like more of a nitpick than an important objection to the C&R definition. After all, if instead of C&R to determine atheism you use instead, "Capable of considering", well that is just a sort of blanket statement covering all religions. How can you (meaningfully) say that a person is capable of considering without some way to see if they have considered? So it seems to me that the "C&R" definition extrapolates from one or some religions to all religions, whereas the "Capable of considering" definition interpolates from all religions to apply to any specific religion. Both are logically valid, but both are extremely general. A person who is capable of considering sun worship* is not necessarily capable of considering Orthodox Judaism.

*To invoke the ghost of Iacchus.
 
Can a baby be a atheist, mmmmmm, can a baby be a republican, a democrat, a Christian, a Muslim, a Hindu, a Buddhist, a, well you get the idea, and the envelope please…….. rip………. NO.

They have no reasoning ability, and/or any knowledge of the above and therefore can not be any of the above.

Paul

:) :) :)

Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
 
over 600 posts and 15 days later people are still debating if babies are born atheists.....I cant believe your are all still talking about this.Babies are born with no knowledge of anything they have to be taught.They are born with natural instincts to fed and make noise if they dont get fed.
 
over 600 posts and 15 days later people are still debating if babies are born atheists.....I cant believe your are all still talking about this.Babies are born with no knowledge of anything they have to be taught.They are born with natural instincts to fed and make noise if they dont get fed.
As for me, I've learned a lot in this thread, including new ways of looking at things. I find that to be worthwhile. Sure it's a simple question, but it turns out that the answer is not as simple. For example, I do not believe that you can simply say babies are born with no knowledge of anything. They have brains even in the womb. Their brains aren't switched on by passage through the birth canal. Would you care to defend your statement?

ETA:
As it turns out, fetuses can learn.
 
Last edited:
Babies are crying poo and pee factories. Why are we discussing their "viewpoint" on any subject?

over 600 posts and 15 days later people are still debating if babies are born atheists.....I cant believe your are all still talking about this.Babies are born with no knowledge of anything they have to be taught.They are born with natural instincts to fed and make noise if they dont get fed.

Can a baby be a atheist, mmmmmm, can a baby be a republican, a democrat, a Christian, a Muslim, a Hindu, a Buddhist, a, well you get the idea, and the envelope please…….. rip………. NO.

They have no reasoning ability, and/or any knowledge of the above and therefore can not be any of the above.

Paul

:) :) :)

Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

SSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHH!

Don't go doing that.

I have $1 a post on overs at 200+ posts and there are still 100 to go. Looks to be easy money at the moment!
 
For example, I do not believe that you can simply say babies are born with no knowledge of anything.

Just a quick tip, mate:

You'd need to define "knowledge" pretty comprehensively - even a tree "knows" that it's winter. That's about where neonates are in "knowledge".
 
Just a quick tip, mate:

You'd need to define "knowledge" pretty comprehensively - even a tree "knows" that it's winter. That's about where neonates are in "knowledge".

Dude, Tricky already knows how to circularly define. He's a past master at it!

Unless Claus or Trixie comes up with a point that has not been make a dozen times already in this thread (highly unlikely), this is it for me--unless you want to split your winnings. I can pretty much guarantee you meet your goal if there is something in it for me.
 
Just a quick tip, mate:

You'd need to define "knowledge" pretty comprehensively - even a tree "knows" that it's winter. That's about where neonates are in "knowledge".
Trees don't "learn" that it's winter, but unborn babies learn to discriminate between voices in a way that satisfies any definition of "knowledge" you could likely propose. I'm not claiming they have a lot of knowledge, but certainly some. Late term infants have a highly developed nervous system. It would be more incredible to claim that they didn't learn.

And I wouldn't dispute Merc about "circular definitions". He learned it in the daisy chain. :p
 
No, you didn't explain, you just stated.
An explanation is a statement that the listener understands. I can't be responsible for your lack of understanding.

How can you believe in God without devotion? Fear, sure - God is clearly big on his believers fearing him. But no devotion?

Also, how can you believe in God without the morality pointy-finger?
You can be a Deist.
 
Unless Claus or Trixie comes up with a point that has not been make a dozen times already in this thread (highly unlikely), this is it for me--unless you want to split your winnings. I can pretty much guarantee you meet your goal if there is something in it for me.

I could do a 50/50 split over 250!
 
Trees don't "learn" that it's winter,...
I didn't say they did, I said they know it's winter.

... but unborn babies learn to discriminate between voices in a way that satisfies any definition of "knowledge" you could likely propose.

Well, it doesn't at all actually. The study you refer to includes an awful lot of "appears" and "mays", rather than offering proof.

I would accept, however, that neonates can distinguish between different noises [voices], but so can very young mice and lambs. Do baby mice and lambs have "knowledge"?

I'm not claiming they have a lot of knowledge, but certainly some.

Well, can you define "knowledge" then, as my own description of knowledge would contain at least a modicum of sentience.

Late term infants have a highly developed nervous system.

So do frogs. Do frogs have "knowledge"?

It would be more incredible to claim that they didn't learn.

Certainly, human babies do learn, and learn very quickly. When born, however, their "knowledge" is extremely limited.
 
As for me, I've learned a lot in this thread, including new ways of looking at things. I find that to be worthwhile. Sure it's a simple question, but it turns out that the answer is not as simple. For example, I do not believe that you can simply say babies are born with no knowledge of anything. They have brains even in the womb. Their brains aren't switched on by passage through the birth canal. Would you care to defend your statement?

ETA:
As it turns out, fetuses can learn.

Easy to defend.I have had four babies,everone born with a working brain.This brain knew how to keep my baby alive by pumping blood through its heart,working all the baby's nerves,working all baby's major organ etc..
Fetuses and new born babies can learn but they do have to be taught.The answer to me is very simple.
 
I could do a 50/50 split over 250!

This seems like more of a nitpick than an important objection to the C&R definition. After all, if instead of C&R to determine atheism you use instead, "Capable of considering", well that is just a sort of blanket statement covering all religions. How can you (meaningfully) say that a person is capable of considering without some way to see if they have considered? So it seems to me that the "C&R" definition extrapolates from one or some religions to all religions, whereas the "Capable of considering" definition interpolates from all religions to apply to any specific religion. Both are logically valid, but both are extremely general. A person who is capable of considering sun worship* is not necessarily capable of considering Orthodox Judaism.

*To invoke the ghost of Iacchus.
Great Ghost of Dionysus Himself! You have indeed (perhaps accidentally) stumbled upon a circularity problem in what I was asking of Claus... I need to clear it up, and simultaneously clear up your extrapolation question, which is indeed very germane.

"Capacity for considering", of course, is the circularity I am speaking of. I asked Claus to demonstrate "capacity", not merely "potential", for understanding in infants. Quite obviously, neither of these can be demonstrated except circularly, inferred from the actual behavior of the infants. To say that an infant has the "capacity for considering" simply means that this infant has been observed considering (this is a hypothetical, of course--what we typically call "considering" includes the public or private verbal comparison of two or more options). So, instead of asking for evidence that infants have the capacity to consider, I should have simply asked for evidence that infants do consider.

Of course, the problem is considerably worse when we look for the "potential for belief" in a developing infant. The circularity is the same--we know that something has the potential for becoming X only by observing it eventually become X--but the inference is considerably delayed, and the "potential" becomes an article of faith. Consider the discussion over the infants "potential to become literate": certainly, not all adults are literate; how, then, are we to know that a given infant has the potential to become literate? One could make the argument that even the illiterate adults still have the "potential to become literate"; of course, this is also a statement of faith, rather than a useful term. The only way to know that they have that potential is to actually observe them becoming literate...by which time, the "potential" is irrelevant. (Yes, Tricky, it is exactly like Iacchus's "path of least resistance" that was always inferred after the fact, and claimed as the only possible path. Useless.)

Now... on to your extrapolation bit. You are quite right--I am using this "capacity of considering" in a blanket manner--like Aristotle's "at the time when by nature it would". I would still argue (and, in fact, I think I will) that this is logically more tenable than the C&R--all the privative needs is the observation of the characteristic in similar others. (You may now quibble on precisely how similar different people can be.) To have privative atheists, all we need are believers (I suppose all we need is one--of any religion at all--to define the term. logically, if not practically.). We don't actually need to have a demonstrated "capacity", or generalization to other gods, or anything of the sort; it is a very simple definition.

Your "a person who is capable of considering sun worship..." bit is nice, but it is a problem only for C&R, not for privative atheism. The simple fact that somebody else is a sun-worshipper is enough. Practically speaking, the privative sun-worship-atheist need not have considered sun worship at all, but simply be part of a population with at least one sun-worshipper.

But as nitpicks go, I think we can give you this one. Yes, I was using a blanket statement. (feel better?) It's just that the "blanket statement" problem is a real problem for C&R, since "considered" is part of the definition, and essentially irrelevant for the privative definition, since if we did not have the observed characteristic in some member of the population, there would be no need for the privative in the first place.
 
I didn't say they did, I said they know it's winter.
I don't think that would be called "knowledge" under most definitions, although it is described that way idiomatically.

Well, it doesn't at all actually. The study you refer to includes an awful lot of "appears" and "mays", rather than offering proof.
That's just careful science. Scientists only offer evidence, so qualifiers are always necessary. Only Bleevers offer "proof". The evidence appears to be pretty good.

I would accept, however, that neonates can distinguish between different noises [voices], but so can very young mice and lambs. Do baby mice and lambs have "knowledge"?
Under my definition, yes they do. What I consider to be knowledge is "learning". With such a broad definition, lots of things fall under the umbrella, so the word has a lot of uses. But frankly, I don't see how you could have it any other way. Does a lamb have "knowledge" of which ewe is it's mother? What else could you possibly call it?

Well, can you define "knowledge" then, as my own description of knowledge would contain at least a modicum of sentience.
Sentience is easy. It is just a capacity for sensation or feeling. My experience with baiting a fishhook tells me that even earthworms have this, though I think "knowledge" might be a bit of a stretch. I think "ability to learn" would be the key factor. A tree can't "learn" to sprout in winter.

So do frogs. Do frogs have "knowledge"?
Some. Probably not as much as 8-month old human fetuses.

Certainly, human babies do learn, and learn very quickly. When born, however, their "knowledge" is extremely limited.
Yes, it is extremely limited, and I would agree that complex concepts like religion would be beyond its knowledge, just as concepts like quantum physics are beyond my knowledge. But knowledge is not an "off/on" thing. It is a scale. Children are not born with zero knowledge. They are born with very limited knowledge. (As always, IMO).

Easy to defend.I have had four babies,everone born with a working brain.This brain knew how to keep my baby alive by pumping blood through its heart,working all the baby's nerves,working all baby's major organ etc..
Fetuses and new born babies can learn but they do have to be taught.The answer to me is very simple.
Yes, they can and do learn, thus gaining a small amount of knowledge. That is why I think it is incorrect to say:
petra10 said:
Babies are born with no knowledge of anything...
They are born with very little knowledge about a very limited range of subjects. Still, probably more than a full-grown frog.
 
They are born with very little knowledge about a very limited range of subjects. Still, probably more than a full-grown frog.

Demonstrably, not even close.

A frog has knowledge of what to eat, what to avoid, how to find a mate, what to do when he finds one, where to hide and where to live.

I've always related the various stages of babyhood to animal species. Neonates are about equivalent with slugs. Frogs are much later.
 
Demonstrably, not even close.

A frog has knowledge of what to eat, what to avoid, how to find a mate, what to do when he finds one, where to hide and where to live.

I've always related the various stages of babyhood to animal species. Neonates are about equivalent with slugs. Frogs are much later.
It would be hard to say how much of a frog's "knowledge" is learned and how much is instinctive. I admit, the line between knowledge and instinct are quite blurry, but I was speaking of things that can be experimentally shown to be learned knowledge. But it's an interesting topic. Maybe it needs to have its own thread.
 
So... this "knowledge" you are bandying about...As it is being used here, could one not use the word "ability" just as well? A frog has the ability to eat proper foods, the ability to avoid improper foods, the ability to find a mate, the ability to do the amphibian tango with said mate, the ability to hide, the ability to find an adequate place to live...

I don't much like "ability" either. Perhaps it has the will to eat proper foods, the will to avoid improper ones, the will to find a mate, the will to mate with its find, the will to hide, the will to live...

Or the instinct to eat proper foods, to avoid improper ones...yadda yadda...

(And of course, we cannot know whether some other species shares the same knowledge, but simply has the will to resist, or the ability to choose otherwise...)

Anyway... we know frogs do these things. Until we define "knowledge" in such a manner that it is helpful, it makes no sense to say that trees know it is winter, that frogs know it is spring, or that babies know it is god. Ah, the problems we get into when we trade in our "good-enough" everyday language for the required rigor of the language of scientific exploration....
 
So... this "knowledge" you are bandying about...As it is being used here, could one not use the word "ability" just as well? A frog has the ability to eat proper foods, the ability to avoid improper foods, the ability to find a mate, the ability to do the amphibian tango with said mate, the ability to hide, the ability to find an adequate place to live...

I don't much like "ability" either. Perhaps it has the will to eat proper foods, the will to avoid improper ones, the will to find a mate, the will to mate with its find, the will to hide, the will to live...

Or the instinct to eat proper foods, to avoid improper ones...yadda yadda...

(And of course, we cannot know whether some other species shares the same knowledge, but simply has the will to resist, or the ability to choose otherwise...)

Anyway... we know frogs do these things. Until we define "knowledge" in such a manner that it is helpful, it makes no sense to say that trees know it is winter, that frogs know it is spring, or that babies know it is god. Ah, the problems we get into when we trade in our "good-enough" everyday language for the required rigor of the language of scientific exploration....
What was wrong with my definition of knowledge? Knowledge is what you learn. Yes, I know the root of the word comes from "know", but as several have pointed out, that leads to all sorts of difficulty in discriminating what you have learned from what is innate, like a tree's "knowledge" of when to sprout.

Things that you have learned, on the other hand, are much more amenable to testing. (You've probably given a few tests of learning in your lifetime.) If it makes you feel better, call it "learning", but let's face it, when we call someone "knowledgeable", we don't mean he has great instincts.
 
What was wrong with my definition of knowledge? Knowledge is what you learn. Yes, I know the root of the word comes from "know", but as several have pointed out, that leads to all sorts of difficulty in discriminating what you have learned from what is innate, like a tree's "knowledge" of when to sprout.
I had the same problem with it. Your definition is fine, so long as you remember that it is an artificial usage, distinct from the word as used in common parlance in significant ways. We (casually) speak of knowledge as something that guides and influences our actions--something causal, rather than something inferred from changes in behavior ("what you have learned"). It has the aroma of innateness to it--as opposed to "learned" (as in "a learned man", in contrast to your "knowledgeable" person below"). One acquires learning; one has knowledge. As you use it, it is perfectly acceptable; as others might quote you, it could be another story.
Things that you have learned, on the other hand, are much more amenable to testing. (You've probably given a few tests of learning in your lifetime.) If it makes you feel better, call it "learning", but let's face it, when we call someone "knowledgeable", we don't mean he has great instincts.
I agree wholeheartedly that learning is a much better standard (for empirical investigation) than knowledge (and don't even get me started on aptitude and achievement tests). Of course, I would assume that anyone we call "knowledgeable" has demonstrated quite a bit of complex (including, perhaps preponderately, verbal) behavior, and our use of "knowledgeable" is essentially a label for this performance (and, importantly, not a cause of it.)
 

Back
Top Bottom