Are Miracles Possible?

[Abdul Alhazred]

Re: Re: Are Miracles Possible?

I wanted to invoke the concept of replication as it is used in experimental science or the million dollar challenge. How many concepts of replication are there? I don't have any particular kind of historical event in mind.

I thought divine intervention is what made it a miracle.

Otherwise, anything that's 'unexplained' is a miracle.

When it comes to the million dollar challenge we are talking about people who claim some power that can be tested.

Not powers that resemble Biblical miracles, but powers that resemble magic tricks.

Has Randi ever tested a faith healer? I know he exposed quite a few, but I mean tested for the million dollar challenge?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

If something continues to happen, then it's not a miracle.

My point, is that here is no reason to believe that any phenomena has been or will be restricted to a single occurance.. I'll gladly admit my mistake when shown something to the contrary..


Can miracles exist in our imagination? I imagine a miracle occurring. Having a very lucid imagination, I then apply your argument. Here, within the world of my imagination, that weird event actually occurred. Therefore it's not a miracle.

Do you intend to be realistic about this, or just end the discussion by suggesting that anything we can imagine, be given equal credibility with all things experienced?

 

[The idea]

My point is that here is no reason to believe that any phenomena has been or will be restricted to a single occurrence.. I'll gladly admit my mistake when shown something to the contrary..

Earlier you seemed to argue against miracles on the grounds that "a miracle is an impossible event and it isn't possible for the impossible to occur" or something like that. Now that you are no longer misrepresenting the concept of miracles as being self-contradictory, we have no quarrel.

Do you intend to be realistic about this, or just end the discussion by suggesting that anything we can imagine, be given equal credibility with all things experienced?

I was simply applying your concept of a miracle within one given model of the universe. It seems that you are now moving to a concept of miracles that depends on comparing different models of the universe.

(In particular, a permissive model allows for events that you classify as miracles. However, to classify them as miracles, you need to observe that, in some other model, those kinds of events cannot occur.)

 

[Skeptical Greg]

I'm still comfortable with : " A miracle is an impossible event.. " ( and does not occur )

 

[geni]

Jesus was supposed to have walked on water, physically impossible, ergo it didn't happen!

How is it imposible? All you need is browine motion and some very^999999999^99999999^99999999 large odds.

 

[The idea]

Re: Re: Re: Are Miracles Possible?

I thought divine intervention is what made it a miracle.

Who has actually observed divine intervention? Wouldn't one have to recognize a divine being? It seems more likely that an event classified as a miracle will be assumed to have been caused by divine intervention.

Otherwise, anything that's 'unexplained' is a miracle.

Suppose you buy an old textbook from a store that sells used books. You notice some intelligent comments written in it. You also notice some stupid comments in the same handwriting. Maybe two different people had similar handwriting? Maybe an intelligent person wrote the stupid comments as a joke? Maybe an intelligent person wrote the intelligent comments and then suffered brain damage? There is something unexplained. Is it therefore a miracle?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Are Miracles Possible?

.....
There is something unexplained. Is it therefore a miracle?

You sure went to a lot of trouble for that one...

Can you understand the difference between something that cannot be explained, and something that has an explaination that is yet to be revealed?

 

[Abdul Alhazred]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Are Miracles Possible?

Who has actually observed divine intervention?

To the best of my knowledge, nobody. Of course some claim it.

I thought is was a matter of the definition of the word 'miracle'.

The sun standing still has to be a made up story. Fire from heaven could be a natural phenomenon interpreted piously. Turning water into wine could be a conjuring trick. All are alleged miracles.

I don't get your analogy about the bookstore.

 

[The idea]

I'm still comfortable with : " A miracle is an impossible event.. " ( and does not occur )

Are you comfortable with that as a definition of "miracle" or are you comfortable with that as a conclusion?

Do the words "impossible" and "inexplicable" mean the same thing to you?

 

[Johnny Pneumatic]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by wollery
Jesus was supposed to have walked on water, physically impossible, ergo it didn't happen!







I've walked on water(frozen).

 

[Yahweh]

Re: Re: Are Miracles Possible?

It's hard to construct a definition, but maybe an example will be helpful. Suppose someone you know made a small, one-of-a-kind object by hand from clay and gave it to you. A few years later you are alone in a room with the door closed and the window closed and you are wide awake and clear-headed and there is no noise or other distraction. While rearranging objects on a high shelf, you accidentally knock down the one-of-a-kind clay object. It hits the floor and breaks into many pieces.

You are upset about the mishap and throw a blanket over the pieces and spend fifteen minutes staring at the blanket and thinking about how unfortunate the accident was. Then you lift up the blanket and see the one-of-a-kind clay object whole and unbroken.

Under that scenario, I'm afraid I'll have to judge miracles as "It is not possible for miracles to occur".

 

[BillyJoe]

The word "miracle" has suffered the same fate as "belief", "free will", "god" and "spirituality" By redefining them we can all believe in them. But by the original definitions none of these things exist.

 

[Tricky]

The word "miracle" has suffered the same fate as "belief", "free will", "god" and "spirituality" By redefining them we can all believe in them. But by the original definitions none of these things exist.

That is true. In comman parlance, "miracle" has come to mean anything that is fairly uncommon, such as a person recovering from a normally deadly disease. We all speak imprecisely of the "miracles of modern science". I'm not ready to throw away a perfectly good word, only to use it for something non-existant.

But the funny thing about these kinds of "miracles" is that the more we learn about our world, the more miracles occur. Some religious groups claim miraculous divine intervention when someone is unexpectedly healed, but I'm guessing most of these healings have also occurred with the miraculous mundane intervention of medical science. There are a few groups who refuse medical treatment. Oddly, they don't have as many "miracles".

So call these things "miracles" if you like. I have no qualms with the use of the word. But when you give thanks for the miracles, don't forget to thank the humans who made them possible.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Are you comfortable with that as a definition of "miracle" or are you comfortable with that as a conclusion?


Not in the sense that I use definitions.. I have no reason to believe miracles are possible. I certainly do not use the word ' miracle ' as the definition of ' impossible '..

Do the words "impossible" and "inexplicable" mean the same thing to you?

I haven't really thought of it that way, but if you were to suggest that something could never be explained, I would conclude that such a thing would be impossible..

In other words, " If something does happen, it must have an explanation.

 

[Ladewig]

After reading the thread up to this point, I have a better idea about what is being talked about and I am prepared to vote "no."

I think Charles Dickens summed it up best with:

"Why do you doubt your senses'' asked Marley's ghost.

"Because,'' said Scrooge, "a little thing affects them. A slight disorder of the stomach makes them cheats. You may be an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potato."

The sense are easily deceived by both internal and external mechanisms. No matter how real the "unbreaking" of an irrepairable object seemed to you, I will need more evidence than your sworn testimony.

 

[BillyJoe]

Tricky,

. I'm not ready to throw away a perfectly good word, only to use it for something non-existant.

Yes, you can even believe in God if you want to and still be an atheist.

BillyJoe

 

[wollery]

Jesus was supposed to have walked on water, physically impossible, ergo it didn't happen!

How is it imposible? All you need is browine motion and some very^999999999^99999999^99999999 large odds.

I assume you mean Brownian motion, in which case you really need to check your physics text book. Brownian motion is the random motion of fluid particles (eg gas or water molecules) which will suspend small particles, such as dust or smoke, within the fluid. It does not affect large bodies and does not have any effect at a surface boundary.

In order to suspend a human wholly above water would require either a floatation device (ie a raft or boat) or a powerful directed jet of water, which would hurt a lot and be rather obvious.

 

[The idea]

[...] one cannot be a fair judge of how "wide awake and clear-headed" one's self is [...]

Should people who live alone not operate motor vehicles? If it is hazardous to drive while partly asleep and if you cannot fairly judge whether or not you are yourself wide awake, then would it be advisable to always consult someone before driving?

 

[Tricky]

Tricky,

Yes, you can even believe in God if you want to and still be an atheist.

BillyJoe

When discussing philosophy, I am an atheist. But I regularly say things like "Damn, that's three red lights in a row. I must have offended the traffic gods." It's intended to humorously comment on the sometimes unfair nature of the universe and attribute it to a capricious deity. Don't even tell me you've never run afoul of the traffic gods.

 

[Hutch]

Don't even tell me you've never run afoul of the traffic gods.

I have coached Youth Soccer for upwards of 23 years and am a firm believer in the Great Goal Gods.