Are men really more violent than women?

[gumboot]

I'd like to introduce the "aggression is entirely biological" people to the Fafafini. Fafafini are a phenomenon unique to Samoan culture, in which young boys are raised as girls. This is typically done in a household where there are insufficient daughters because Samoans distinctly divide different duties to the two genders, with women doing domestic work and men doing hard labour.

Fafafini are considered women in all respects - for example a Fafafini will only have sex with straight males and it is not considered homosexual intercourse.

Anyone who is familiar with Samoan males knows they can be very aggressive and they're also genetically very big and powerful. Fafafini are also large and powerful, however the interesting thing is they are generally incredibly soft-spoken, passive, and non aggressive - indeed, fafafini are often far less aggressive than Samoan females.

 

[bpesta22]

I am far toward the nature end of the nature nurture continuum thingy, and I think empiricism alone is naive, but I wouldn't say environments don't matter at all.

I think environments may shift the mean of the outcome around but they do little to shift the rank ordering of people around.

I think if you could completely control the environment and do some type of blank slate experiment with newborns, you'd still get large individual differences on most behaviors.

To say that Sue is smarter (or more aggressive; whatever) than Joe because of Sue's upbringing seems to confound nature and nurture, making it hard to pin down why Sue is smarter. If it were possible to raise Sue and Joe in the same environment, I'd bet their within-person differences on variables would be smaller than their between person differences. I'm pretty sure twin studies (and adopted kids / same family studies) bear this out on a number of variables.

 

[bpesta22]

I'd like to introduce the "aggression is entirely biological" people to the Fafafini. Fafafini are a phenomenon unique to Samoan culture, in which young boys are raised as girls. This is typically done in a household where there are insufficient daughters because Samoans distinctly divide different duties to the two genders, with women doing domestic work and men doing hard labour.

Fafafini are considered women in all respects - for example a Fafafini will only have sex with straight males and it is not considered homosexual intercourse.

Anyone who is familiar with Samoan males knows they can be very aggressive and they're also genetically very big and powerful. Fafafini are also large and powerful, however the interesting thing is they are generally incredibly soft-spoken, passive, and non aggressive - indeed, fafafini are often far less aggressive than Samoan females.

Has anyone ever measured their hormone levels? What if the young girls there were raised that way-- would they be even more soft spoken and passive?

 

[gumboot]

Has anyone ever measured their hormone levels? What if the young girls there were raised that way-- would they be even more soft spoken and passive?

Young girls are raised that way. That's what's so interesting - Samoan girls and Fafafinis are raised exactly the same way yet Fafafinis tend to be less aggressive.

 

[Lonewulf]

Hm, this is an interesting bit of data. I didn't know about this, Gumboot; thanks for the mention.

http://www.weshow.com/categories/ed...sciences/video/fafafini-sexual-identity-64627 From National Geographic, a film on the Fa'afafini

http://intersections.anu.edu.au/issue6/schmidt.html A website on the subject.

Don't have time for a thorough read, just wanted to make the data available.

I find this interesting.

From the Wikipedia article, though, there does seem to be some selection bias; it seems that some boys purposefully will not choose to become one. I'm not so sure how much say they have.

 

[bpesta22]

Unless I'm reading the story wrong it seems to show a scenario where upbringing can dramatically alter a male's expected level of aggression. I'm ok with that. I wonder, if females in that same culture were treated exactly like the male/females, would there still be aggression differences favoring the biological males? I predict their would. Showing no difference would be a pretty hard hit for anyone taking the nurture side.

If I misread the story; sorry.

 

[bpesta22]

Sorry, I think I understand it now. That is interesting. Gotta link!?

 

[Lonewulf]

Nevermind

 

[Zelenius]

I'd like to introduce the "aggression is entirely biological" people to the Fafafini.

I'm unaware of anyone arguing that "aggression is entirely biological", so it seems you have set up a strawman to demolish. I know I would never argue that. I think aggression is "largely" biological, but there are cultural and environmental factors that influence aggression as well. Unless we do some very good controlled studies, it's ridiculous to try to tease out the exact percentage of aggression that is due to genes, and the exact percentage that is due to environmental factors.

As for the study you mention, I don't find it surprising since no one arguing that aggression is mostly biological are denying the importance of environment on aggression.

 

[ConspiRaider]

Young girls are raised that way. That's what's so interesting - Samoan girls and Fafafinis are raised exactly the same way yet Fafafinis tend to be less aggressive.

That CANNOT be true.

I'll betcha $105,000 the Fafafinis are trained to put the toilet seat up, then back down when they're done, and that the Samoan girls give them an incredible line of jazz when they forget.

 

[gumboot]

Another good case study would be the "sworn virgins" of Albania - women who are raised and treated as men. There are differences - they do it voluntarily and it appears they can make this transition in adulthood, and they are prohibited from certain actions (such as taking part in battles in the many family blood feuds). Unfortunately the practise has all but died out - only an estimated 40 of them still exist and they're all quite old.

In regards to Fafafini, there's very little information about them because they don't appear to have been studied much, and much of it is wrong - you will typically seem them referred to as "Samoan transvestites" or similar. This is complicated because so many Samoans live in New Zealand and here they traditionally have only found acceptance in the Gay/Lesbian community - reinforcing the incorrect perception. This is further exacerbated because during the Gay/Lesbian push for equal rights, people like Fafafini were seized on by the movement as "evidence" of homosexuality being "natural" (pointing to more natural/primitive cultures) despite the fact that Fafafini are not considered homosexuals by their society.

There is some debate about the voluntary nature of being Fafafini - there does seem to be some tension in terms of boys raised as girls against their will and such things - for example boys thinking they're boys and being told by other boys that they are a girl. Given that Fafafini are raised from early childhood as girls, it's hard to really assess how much consent is involved, but certainly I don't think you can argue that only certain males end up becoming Fafafini. You could perhaps make an argument that particularly aggressive/masculine/whatever males are the ones that in older life reject their status and revert to being "male". I cannot even begin to imagine the trauma an experience like that would produce.

 

[gumboot]

I'm unaware of anyone arguing that "aggression is entirely biological", so it seems you have set up a strawman to demolish.

This particular sub-thread of discussion was initiated by:

It seems to me a no-brainer that men are on average more aggressive than women, and that it's a biological thing.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

Unwanted Perspective of A Young Married American Male:

I've been married for about 7 years now. The first couple were pretty rough as far as arguing with each other, and I caught myself going to the brink of wanting to hit her a few times. Fortunately with time and experience and a helluva lot of growing pains, I learned a very simple tenent of marriage that virtually guarantees that I will never again be even tempted to raise a hand towards my wife.

1.) The husband is wrong.
2.) See #1.

On paper, that really looks like I've completely been declawed (and de-testicled.) However, I prefer to look at it this way. My relationship with my wife is one of the most important things in my life. The only person who can control how angry I get with her is...me, oddly enough. There are plenty of things in this world that justify Hulking up and smashing something, but come on. Your relationships shouldn't ever be one of them.

Also, she got a rolling pin for Christmas last year. Whenver I start getting snarky she just glances in that direction and I promptly shut up. Plus, she's a black belt in Aikido and would probably Steven Seagal me into the next county if I ever decided to throw down.

 

[Lonewulf]

I'm unaware of anyone arguing that "aggression is entirely biological", so it seems you have set up a strawman to demolish.

"I haven't seen it myself, so instead of looking for it right there on the page, I'll just claim it's a strawman!"

Sorry, shouldn't be so sarcastic. Just... jeez.

And even then, there IS claim that biology, notably evolution pulling the strings, plays the most significant factor of all. From the way they say it, it sounds like maybe, 90%, 95%. That's still significant enough to question, for me.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

I've not discounted contributing factors. Clearly the level of violence surrounding the individual has a huge impact. But the idea evolution hasn't contributed specifically to the male/female differences makes no sense.

I agree. The reason men are more violent than women is because women prefer violent men.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

fwiw, skepgirl, I agree with you. It seems to me a no-brainer that men are on average more aggressive than women, and that it's a biological thing.

Otherwise, just lurking here.

Violent yes, aggressive no.

 

[Kaylee]

I'd like to introduce the "aggression is entirely biological" people to the Fafafini. Fafafini are a phenomenon unique to Samoan culture, in which young boys are raised as girls.

<snip>

Fafafini are also large and powerful, however the interesting thing is they are generally incredibly soft-spoken, passive, and non aggressive - indeed, fafafini are often far less aggressive than Samoan females.

Another good case study would be the "sworn virgins" of Albania - women who are raised and treated as men. There are differences - they do it voluntarily and it appears they can make this transition in adulthood, and they are prohibited from certain actions (such as taking part in battles in the many family blood feuds).

The Albanian “sworn virgins” may not actually be a great example. Yes, it does show one society’s range of flexibility in regard to gender roles – but there is nothing in the articles that I found about the “sworn virgins” that discusses their aggressiveness, just a short list of reasons why some women would choose to do this. And Gumboot’s comment that the sworn virgins are prohibited from taking part in the family feuds seems to indicate that while they may be accepted by their society in their male roles, they never become as aggressive as the real males.

<off topic>
I may have read too much into it – but my theory is that this is how one society found a way to keep half their population without any legal rights or freedoms. They handled any resulting tension by encouraging the women who couldn’t accept their lot to switch gender roles.

The articles go on to say that the practice died out once the women acquired legal rights – so I think my conclusion is correct.

--

IIRC, per Wolfman, the Mosuo, a Chinese minority group, handle a shortage or boys or girls in a family in a different way. They trade children with another family so both families have the right balances of males and females that they feel that they need.

I think its interesting that the Samoans have a custom in place to handle a shortage of females in a family but not a shortage of males and that the Albanians had a custom in place to handle a shortage of males in a family* but not a shortage of females.

This one sided approach makes me think that something else was going on in each culture to come up with this solution. I think I figured out what was going on in the Albanian culture, but I don’t know what the real reason is for the Samoan custom. </off topic>


* One of the reasons given for why the northern part of Albania had the custom of "sworn virgins".

 

[Modified]

...However, I prefer to look at it this way. My relationship with my wife is one of the most important things in my life. The only person who can control how angry I get with her is...me, oddly enough.

I have found that remaining calm is a fine way to infuriate a slightly angry wife.

 

[calebprime]

I have found that remaining calm is a fine way to infuriate a slightly angry wife.

As is arguing in the JREF manner.

When I get a little hypomanic or want to emulate some of the finer minds around here, I'll jump on every exaggeration, logical inconsistency, anecdote, unproved assertion, persuasive definition that my poor sainted wife commits.

Much better to listen, react like a human, participate as an equal partner, give some ground, hold some ground.

 

[Modified]

Much better to listen, react like a human, participate as an equal partner, give some ground, hold some ground.

That is exactly the sort of thing that will infuriate someone who wants to fight.