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Are current renewable energy strategies worth it?

The laws of physics get in the way of indefinite growth. Even if we went 100% renewable, our current economic growth means we will exceed the energy we get from the sun within about 800years. And temperatures will continue to go up, and by 3985 the surface of the Earth will exceed that of the sun, as our consumption will exceed the output of the sun (in theory).

Hence the need for the qualifier "without resource limitations". This can temporarily be achieved in many ways, from increasing energy efficiency (creating more with less energy), to colonizing other worlds.

Basically, even without fossil fuels, the consumption of energy results in the production of heat. This means we will make the planet hotter if we continue to develop at the rate we are doing.

While there is a limit to what people want or "need", the amount that some countries consume per head is scary. Its just good news that the world population could level off long before economic growth becomes such a serious problem.

But we need a steady state economy. The problem is how to acheive this, and maintain our lifestyle when we have so many different values and ways of doing things.

Problem: steady state economy (whichever version you prefer) in no way solves this issue. Our current existence, with current technology, is not sustainable indefinitely. Putting a lid on growth reduces the strain on resources and makes the timer go longer, but that's it. It doesn't solve anything, just kicks the can down the road. Worse still, forcing a steady state economy could potentially reduce the pressure to find other sources. Off planet, if necessary.

Largely irrelevant. Western societies' "needs" change and increase all the time.

Which is why I said we need to define what "need" amounts to. A growing economy is currently one such debatable need for the vast majority of people directly affected by it, which you dismiss out of hand and claim a steady state economy is needed. I think I made my point as to why such definition is anything but irrelevant?

McHrozni
 
Why not? We have to ban growth in a generation don't we?

We have to work towards it. For the Western world, a couple of generations may be realistic. For others, obviously not. None of this is simple.

Hans
 
Well I can say one thing about electric cars, forget trying to use them to get across the trip I was referring to. In west Texas you can drive 100 miles just to get to the next slightly inhabited location. This is true for most of that large area of the US we call the west. Electric vehicles just won't cut the mustard out there. They are fine for suburbs but unless they can be charged in 5-10 minutes, useless out there.

Hydrocarbons are the finest fuel we have on the planet and so humans better get to work imagining something just as good if we want to maintain our lifestyle, much less improve it. I like my hydrocarbon based car, it's fast, smooth and powerful yet more efficient than the car I drove 15 years ago. The auto manufacturers are doing a good job of getting more functions and making better use of materials and fuel in their products.
 
We have to work towards it. For the Western world, a couple of generations may be realistic. For others, obviously not. None of this is simple.

Hans

From my experience I would be willing to tell couples that procreation is not a good idea unless necessary.
 
Your quote hinted at limitless growth, which is impossible on Earth.
Hence the need for the qualifier "without resource limitations". This can temporarily be achieved in many ways, from increasing energy efficiency (creating more with less energy), to colonizing other worlds.
Actually, other resources are potentially less limiting compared to energy. With improved recycleability in products we could produce goods for far longer (if not indefinetely). Materials development and waste management has a long way to go, but, with these issues developed properly, we can continue to keep making things for years to come, until we reach a limit on energy use.

History tells us that energy efficiency measures actually increase energy use in the long term. And there is a limit to how efficient a device can become. Some devices are already pretty much at their limit.

Energy efficiency improves our lifestyle, and any temporary saving usually results in a net increase in energy useage overall.

Problem: steady state economy (whichever version you prefer) in no way solves this issue. Our current existence, with current technology, is not sustainable indefinitely. Putting a lid on growth reduces the strain on resources and makes the timer go longer, but that's it. It doesn't solve anything, just kicks the can down the road. Worse still, forcing a steady state economy could potentially reduce the pressure to find other sources. Off planet, if necessary.
A steady state economy is needed, as it is the most sustainable solution. Resources such as mineral extraction is potentially a temporary problem, as we recycle more and more (assumes renewables will be used in the future as well).

A forced steady state economy could be a disaster. It is one of the great challenges for future generations for how to acheive this without conflict. If someone comes up with the solution, it will on a par with bringing us affordable fusion energy.

Off planet solutions look to be small scale, and largely robotic in the future. And lets not forget the amount of energy every kg of gear it takes to get in orbit (LEO or otherwise). So before you start saying space is part of the solution, we need to address the energy part of that equation. Manned missions bring their own difficulties of course.

I would love space to be more of the solution, being a bit of a scifi fan, but the energy issue will not go away, and space is a difficult place to exploit.
Which is why I said we need to define what "need" amounts to. A growing economy is currently one such debatable need for the vast majority of people directly affected by it, which you dismiss out of hand and claim a steady state economy is needed. I think I made my point as to why such definition is anything but irrelevant?
I would argue that defining "need" is pointless at this point, as a population's need changes with every generation.

Certainly a first world living standard as of today is what most people in the world would like, but it wouldn't suprise to see wars breaking out if a country has to acheive that living standard. That is still a need by many definitions.

Getting 9 or 10 billion people (or however many we level off at), living a first world living standard is the challenge. Once we get food sorted (and this is acheiveable), it is energy that is the problem, and the increase in energy consumption. Efficiency will not solve this, I hope we both agree.
 
Well I can say one thing about electric cars, forget trying to use them to get across the trip I was referring to. In west Texas you can drive 100 miles just to get to the next slightly inhabited location. This is true for most of that large area of the US we call the west. Electric vehicles just won't cut the mustard out there. They are fine for suburbs but unless they can be charged in 5-10 minutes, useless out there.

The problem is not with rural transport and hybrids can do whatever you want in distance.


Hydrocarbons are the finest fuel we have on the planet and so humans better get to work imagining something just as good if we want to maintain our lifestyle, much less improve it. I like my hydrocarbon based car, it's fast, smooth and powerful yet more efficient than the car I drove 15 years ago. The auto manufacturers are doing a good job of getting more functions and making better use of materials and fuel in their products.

Hydrocarbons have a serious downstream cost called AGW so they are be very good as a fuel from an energy density standpoint but very bad for civilization.

Yes manufacturers have done a decent job but frankly US manufacturers suck at it.
A high tech desiel SUV in Europe can go 950 km on 45 euro ( a single tank ) worth of fuel.

The European fleet average is twice that of the US and they have worse traffic conditions.

Hydrocarbon fuels will not be replaced in the near term but may not need to be fossil fuel based....and THAT is a huge difference.

BAU does not have a good outcome for industrial civilization.
Some progress is being made but lackadaisical response to mitigation by the nations that built their wealth on fossil fuels is immoral.
 
The article confused me a bit with the setup.

I don't think many expect to change the world with current tech. But isn't the idea that supporting devoloping industries is part of developing new technologies?
 
The article IS a mess.

But isn't the idea that supporting devoloping industries is part of developing new technologies?
yup

The biggest idiocy is supporting fossil fuel industries with subsidies while they use the atmosphere as a free sewer and laugh all the way to the bank with their billions and buy a few politicians on the way.

I don't think many expect to change the world with current tech.
Sweden is doing just fine on the way to carbon neutral with current tech.
 
From my experience I would be willing to tell couples that procreation is not a good idea unless necessary.

If you want viable pensions and services for retired people, procreation is necessary.
 
If you want viable pensions and services for retired people, procreation is necessary.

Up to a point. If it's true that technology improves the lot of man then less procreation should be necessary in order to support the future generations. Is there a fly in that ointment?
 
That "people" bought into an unsustainable frontier mentality to hang their pensions on does not equate with cooking the biome to keep them in unproductive clover.

Gotta be one of the lamer excuses for BAU i've run across yet

We'll kill a hundred thousand of em a year, shorten the life span of the rest and destabilize the climate but keep dem pension dollars rolling from coal ???!!!!!.....what a load of bollux.

I suggest Swedish pensioners and citizens are FAR better off in health and wealth for moving towards a carbon neutral society.

or perhaps you are fine with this...

1280px-Beijing_pollution_.jpg
 

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