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Are any renewable energy sources actually a serious alternative?

Rubbish. That's right-wing think-tank WOO.

Ahahahahah! Aaaaahahahhahaha. Right wing. Me. Seriously, that's quite possibly the funniest thing I've been called since someone in school called me fat (Yeah, 6 feet, 9 stone. No.).

But seriously though, as already suggested, you might want to try actually reading the document you linked. I mean for goodness sake, you even specifically quoted the part that proves you're talking crap:
there may be up to 4 000 additional cancer deaths among the three highest exposed groups over their lifetime
It doesn't say there have been 4000 more deaths than reported, it says that there may be 4000 more deaths over the entire lifetime of the people potentially affected.

Yeesh, and you have the gall to accuse other people of woo.:rolleyes:
 
So far, a grand total of 56 people have died as a result.
Those people died with obvious signs of what caused their death.
There must be some certainty to that.:rolleyes:
 
Ahahahahah! Aaaaahahahhahaha. Right wing. Me. Seriously, that's quite possibly the funniest thing I've been called since someone in school called me fat (Yeah, 6 feet, 9 stone. No.).

But seriously though, as already suggested, you might want to try actually reading the document you linked. I mean for goodness sake, you even specifically quoted the part that proves you're talking crap:

It doesn't say there have been 4000 more deaths than reported, it says that there may be 4000 more deaths over the entire lifetime of the people potentially affected.

Yeesh, and you have the gall to accuse other people of woo.:rolleyes:

I'm not calling you right wing, I'm saying that the 56 figure is perpetuated by right wing sources, and they are highly suspect. And even if it is over the entire lifetime, that is a bit more significant than saying 'oh it only killed 56 people', that is a misrepresentation of the incident. I certainly see what you mean, now that you have clarified somewhat, and I reacted because I know the sort of insidious op-ed's that trumpet that '56' claim as a way of discrediting environmentalists in general and playing down the disaster, when the toll, whether be absolute mortality, non-lethal cancer rates or otherwise, is much, much higher.

BTW, I'd be interested in seeing exactly where you 56 number actually comes from. You might laugh at the 4000 deaths that may[/i] (as Skwinty puts it) be caused by the disaster, but at least they have a credible source, and I would say, given the nature of radiation exposure and cancer, that total life mortality needs to be taken into account.

BTW - Thx for the friendly edit in the Climate Lies thread, I appreciate it.
 
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So far, a grand total of 56 people have died as a result.
Those people died with obvious signs of what caused their death.
There must be some certainty to that.:rolleyes:

A. I'd like to see confirmation of this 56 number

B. Why should we discount the less obvious deaths when evaluating the disaster when we have statistical models that can ascribe a more comprehensive mortality rate, even when taking into account the wide uncertainty range?
 
I'm not calling you right wing, I'm saying that the 56 figure is perpetuated by right wing sources, and they are highly suspect.
BTW, I'd be interested in seeing exactly where you 56 number actually comes from. You might laugh at the 4000 deaths that may[/i] (as Skwinty puts it) be caused by the disaster, but at least they have a credible source,


According to UNSCEAR (2000), 134 liquidators received radiation doses high enough to be diagnosed with acute radiation sickness (ARS). Among them, 28 persons died in 1986 due to ARS.

Your own credible source 10 years ago perhaps:p
 
According to the manufacturers of Nuclear containment buildings:

The walls of the containment will not fail in the event of a 747 crashing into them. Have you ever seen the video of the Phantom jet on rails crashing into such a wall at 500mph.

No breach in the wall and 1 vaporised Phantom jet:cool:

Thanks - and to others for their replies.

Puts my mind at rest to a certain extent but I thought I'd read somewhere that containment buildings were designed with lorries etc in mind and most existing stations in Britain wouldn't withstand an air-liner. I must be out of date with my reading / reading the wrong stuff. Will do some googling to try and further put my mind at rest.

Again, a genuine thank you for taking the time to reply.
 
Hmmm. This first link points to a potential flaw (and other concerns) in the 'Phantom' test:

www.greenpeace.org.uk/.../secret-document-reveals-new-breed-of-nuclear-reactors-vulnerable-to-terrorist-attack

And in case you think Greenpeace is not independent enough, here's one that cites the Nuclear Installations Inspectorate:

www.southwestbusiness.co.uk/...nuclear-power-station.../article.html

Other sources downplay it so it's difficult to know the level of risk. I am heartened by some of the replies though.
 
There are many resources at Brave New Climate

http://www.sustainablenuclear.org/

and

http://www.world-nuclear.org/

http://www.sustainablenuclear.org/

that will answer your questions.

You really must look at it against coal and recall that no technology is without risk.
The nuclear community has done an admirable job.

Thanks. No time to read them today but will look tomorrow. I am not anti-nuclear at all - was a proponent of it for ages. The attack rather than accident angle (plus previously not costing in shut-down costs) have shaken my resolve though.

As most say, a mixed model is the way to go.
 
Yep - renewables have a big part to play but a limited one in most areas.
Even Denmark's attempt has been flawed with very power costs and heavy imports.

The risk I perceive is spending a lot of public resources on renewables and not putting those resources to work replacing coal with nuclear. :(:mad:
 
The renewable sources I have the most confidence in as serious (though not complete) alternatives are the ones that can be implemented at the consumer level. For small-scale consumers (households to commercial buildings), that's currently limited to solar and (to some extent) wind. The near future might bring some kind of integrated turn-key biomass digestor/generator. All of those are more suitable for suburban and rural settings than for cities.

(Suburbs are an interesting case. On one hand, they're the most obvious example of the energy-intensive lifestyle by design that arose in the mid 20th century. [The suburb I grew up in has roads through commercial areas with no sidewalks, among other abominations. Such as, intersections with "no pedestrian crossing allowed" signs -- so you have to literally break the law to go from place to place on foot.] On the other hand, the sprawl will help to accommodate local and individual solar power collection and limited local food production, so suburbs might persist instead of reverting to farm land.)

The reason consumer solutions have an advantage is the speed and flexibility inherent in parallel action by numerous individual households and businesses. Imagine if around 1975, the worldwide consumption of an exaFlop of computing power in the year 1995 was foreseen. The leaders of the computer industry probably would have said something like, "To meet that need, we would have to build new large mainframe computer facilities at a rate of thirty per day." Sounds scary and impossible. But consumers and manufacturers made it happen in a different way.

(The analogy is imperfect, of course, because power generation technology cannot possibly multiply in effect per unit cost the way computers did. On the other hand, the increase in demand isn't as extreme either.)

Demand per capita can be decreased a lot more with design, technology, and minor social changes. So much of the "normal" way we do things was designed to exploit cheap energy. Like, heating whole houses instead of just the room(s) we're using, or just ourselves. When home heating came from fireplaces, houses used to be designed with the expectation that specific rooms or floors would be closed for the winter (that is, not heated; you could still go there to get something). Today, having two or three separate HVAC zones is considered a luxury feature, and plumbing is still designed in a way that makes it difficult or dangerous to allow any part of the building to freeze. That has to, and will, change.

Fleece and thermal clothing has made it as comfortable for me to set my thermostat to 55 or 60 degrees F in winter time, for normal activities, as it used to be at 70 to 75, without feeling "bundled up." If someone starts selling thin insulated gloves with fingertip pads with the right friction for keyboarding, I could lower that another 5 degrees. The next 5 degrees after that would require some additional innovations, like a warmed dining table top that keeps your cooked food from getting cold before you can eat it. Beyond that, mains powered (rather than battery powered) thermally active indoor clothing would become useful. You're not going to be able to make money selling any of those things while heating your whole house or office is still affordable to most, but see what happens after another doubling or tripling of the price.

The point is, if we did need to go back to year 1900 levels of per capita energy consumption, that does not mean going back to a 1900 level of comfort and productivity, because we will still have 2010 (and forward) technology to work with. What's holding us back is all the technology and social conventions that are based on mind-1900's solutions using cheap energy.

Energy consumption by industry, commerce, and agriculture is subject, to varying degrees, to similar changes. The processes used to manufacture and distribute a given item are the ones that are cheapest overall, not the ones that use least energy. If I ran a widget factory in the 20th century, and someone invented a widget manufacturing process that used ten times more energy per unit (say, $10.00 worth instead of $1.00 worth), and saved $11.00 in materials cost or overhead (e.g. by speeding up the process), then I'd have been managing poorly if I don't implement that method. If the energy price goes up more than 10% so that that method no longer pays, the price I have to charge for widgets doesn't increase by $11.00 + profit margin, it increases by $1.00 + the increase in cost for the $1.00 worth of energy needed for the other method + profit margin. That's an extreme example, but the point is that energy demand is often very sensitive to energy price, especially over the long term where capital tied up in energy-intensive production methods can be moved into alternatives.

When I first made an effort many years ago to look into the energy future of the western world, I found the doom-and-gloom predictions (such as those of the Peak Oil crowd) almost convincing. But then I started asking, "how comfortably could people live at about 1 kilowatt per capita?" and some of the possibilities for solutions started looking reasonable. The most troublesome issue is food production and transport. If a kcal of the food I eat requires more than 10 kcals of energy to plant, grow, harvest, process, and transport (not counting the solar energy used by the plants) -- which it currently does, by a large margin -- then staying under the 24 kwh/day "limit" is going to be very difficult.

However, the total usage "ration" of 1 kw (for all consumption, not just household) is pretty strict. It's what I could collect by covering my roof with solar panels and filling part of my basement with batteries, at about the cost of a new luxury car. A share in a co-op wind/solar facility in the plains a few hundred miles west would probably be more economical. This is also a worst-case scenario in a different way, in that it assumes alternatives alone have to do the whole job.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
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There are many resources at Brave New Climate

http://www.sustainablenuclear.org/

and

http://www.world-nuclear.org/

http://www.sustainablenuclear.org/

that will answer your questions.

You really must look at it against coal and recall that no technology is without risk.
The nuclear community has done an admirable job.

I watched a documentary on television (no links) that said they were in the preliminary stages of developing a bacteria that ate coal ash and turned the bacterium to energy.
 
I think we should switch to nuclear while we figure out something better.
 
I watched a documentary on television (no links) that said they were in the preliminary stages of developing a bacteria that ate coal ash and turned the bacterium to energy.

:dl: sorry but clean coal is an oxymoron

How bout we skip the coal step ....there are better things to get bacteria to do...like turn algae and other stuff into fuel.

Bacteria rebuilt to make oil - Cosmic Log - msnbc.com
27 Jan 2010 ... E. coli bacteria are naturally programmed to turn those sugars into ..... The algae oil developers ignored this energy auditing approach and ..
http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2010/01/27/2186743.aspx

Pressure-cooking algae into a better biofuel

ANN ARBOR, Mich.---Heating and squishing microalgae in a pressure-cooker can fast-forward the crude-oil-making process from millennia to minutes.
http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/pressure-cooking-algae-better-biofuel.html

Coal interests will do and say anything to prolong their inevitable demise.
 
Yep - renewables have a big part to play but a limited one in most areas.
Even Denmark's attempt has been flawed with very power costs and heavy imports.

The risk I perceive is spending a lot of public resources on renewables and not putting those resources to work replacing coal with nuclear. :(:mad:

Agreed. That's why I hesitate pushing renewables, I don't want people to think it's THE solution. It's a part of it, but unless something monumental happens it's only a small part. The free market will put renewables in areas they are competative, but the rest will have to be made up by nuclear.

In the next few years we will get a better idea if carbon sequestering is viable. It might be, but the process may push the cost per KW hour of coal and natural gas well above that of nuclear.

I'm not sure it's been mentioned in this thread, but recapturing the energy in garbage is also an area of great potential. It's not really renewable, but certainly alternative.
 
Norway has been sequestering C02 in the North Sea for quite a while.
In combination with their $50 a barrel carbon tax they are a long way towards carbon neutral and are committed to it by mid century.
That will be quite a challenge given their fossil fuel industry.
But then they have 1/2 trillion dollars in their Heritage fund - unlike the clowns in Alberta who piss away their money and still run a $4 billion deficit.

I like better some of the approaches to reuse C02 into liquid fuels.
http://www.marketwire.com/press-rel...ling-Technology-Offers-New-Carbon-1152387.htm
 

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