Are all mediums con artists then?

Was it Dante

who wrote in the Inferno that fortune tellers will be doomed to walk through Hell for all eternity with their heads on backwards, punishment for claiming to know the future?

What happens to people who believe in psychics, mediums, etc.? I can only speculate where their heads are, but I have an idea.

Well done, rare Medium!
 
who wrote in the Inferno that fortune tellers will be doomed to walk through Hell for all eternity with their heads on backwards, punishment for claiming to know the future?

If so, I would like the quote.
 
You'll have to wait until Ian is dead and then contact a psychic....

Funny, is it not, that no sceptic sems to have died (ever!) and found himself able to communicate with the living. Setting up a test would be ever so simple ....

Rasmus.
 
Do you believe he is still alive? The sceptic in me reqires me to question.
edit: I apologise if anyone finds that remark insensitive, I just figure if it were the case, can you imagine how many psychics out there would be claiming to have contacted him by now. "Sure Ya, he's in sceptic heaven."
*watch this space*
 
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If so, I would like the quote.
Ask and ye shall receive:

"I was now wholly set on looking into the disclosed depth that was bathed with tears of anguish, and I saw folk coming, silent and weeping, through the circular valley, at the pace at which lltanies go in this world. As my sight descended deeper among them, each appeared marvelously distorted from the chin to the beginning of the chest; for toward their reins their face was turned, and they must needs go backwards, because they were deprived of looking forward. Perchance sometimes by force of palsy one has been thus completely twisted, but I never saw it, nor do I think it can be."


It appears in Canto XX, where Dante describes the 8th circle.

More about said Canto XX can be found on this page
 
No I don't. I mean scepticism before Americans hijacked the term.

I'm going to keep pulling at this yarn: what do you mean by this? What date did this start? I have not been able to observe a 'distinct' American attitude - what is it? Skeptics are quite cosmopolitan in my experience. How do you observe it? Isn't this just bigotry?



This has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with modern skepticism. Modern skepticism is a belief system. A belief system moreover which has very little evidence or reason to support it.

I find contemporary skepticism to be a very good approximation of classical skepticism, as practiced in the Academy.




You're talking about a radical philosophical scepticism here. It's impossible to live by.

I'm talking about scepticism in the sense of not simply believing something just because other people do so, or because many people say something occurred. If someone claims some phenomenon occurred and this phenomenon contravenes the way our experience tells us that reality behaves, then it is rational to exercise doubt. We don't just simply believe when there are alternative competing hypotheses to explain what happened.

I think such scepticism in its original meaning is absolutely fine. What I think is highly irrational is to take it as an axiom that reality operates by certain principles, and that therefore any reported phenomenon contravening such principles cannot therefore be accepted for what it straightforwardly appears to be.

This is contrary to classical skepticism, whose assumption is that nothing is what it appears to be, and observations are to be evaluated critically, and not accepted. Skeptics such as Phyrro were reputed to require constant attendance, because they doubted their own body sensations of hunger, thirst, exhaustion, even doubted that the edge of a precipice was what it appeared to be, and his followers are said to have been more babysitters than pupils.

This is the fundamental principle of both contemporary philsophical and practical skepticism. Keep an open mind, but with the purpose of building a working model of reality.

Having said that, one of the most recent developments in contemporary skepticism is the revisiting of the old question: is somebody who lives his life according to true skepticism still a skeptic? Does skepticism contain itself within its scope?


It appears to me that this exactly expresses the sentiments of most people on here. Now I think David Hume is a truly excellent philosopher, but I'm afraid in this instance his reasoning is truly appalling. I won't go into why here because I'm sure no -one has an interest in my reasoning anyway (they never normally do).

A skeptic can endorse whatever philosophical position he chooses.

Gibberish.



But scepticism is all about revising your beliefs should evidence indicate otherwise.

Yessssss...



In this sense David Hume and most people on here are not skeptics (of course Hume was very much a philosophical skeptic).

Yes, but it's a big leap from "here on this forum" to "modern skepticism". This is the JREF forum, which is only loosely associated with the JREF, which is itself sort of attached at the hip to modern skepticism.



I feel a great deal of hostility towards organised skepticism and its aims.

I doubt that. I think you feel a great deal of hostility toward its conclusions. Its aims are pretty uncontroversial. To be specific, the aims of CSICOP are, and always have been:

  • to provide a reliable source of information to the public and media on claims of the paranormal
  • to provide public education in areas of scientific method and paranormal claims
  • to facilitate open-minded testing of paranormal claims
  • to provide a forum for the exchange of views

You would prefer we provide unreliable information? Miseducation? Closed-minded testing? Squelch the exchange of views?

If you are truly hostile to these goals, then I can see why you are unpopular here.


I don't see why not. For skepticism in the modern sense I mean. After all God cannot be seen, cannot be touched. Physical laws govern the entirety of the world. There is just the vast coldness of space overlooking our purposeless lives. That's the sentiment expressed by most skeptics.

I think you will have to be clearer about this "modern sense." You are not using the term in a way with which I am familiar. Most philosophers distinguish 'modern' skepticsism (post-renaissance neoclassicism) from 'contemporary' skepticism (since Unger/Stroud/Nagel's work in the '70s and '80s). All things considered, these remain very similar to classical skepticism in theory and practice.
 
Yep.Despte his wife recanting on a previous statement and claiming he had been in contact.It's pretty much agreed he hasn't.;)

Ah, that's not properly blinded then, is it? Shouldn't have told the wife that her husband was dead!
 
Ask and ye shall receive:

"I was now wholly set on looking into the disclosed depth that was bathed with tears of anguish, and I saw folk coming, silent and weeping, through the circular valley, at the pace at which lltanies go in this world. As my sight descended deeper among them, each appeared marvelously distorted from the chin to the beginning of the chest; for toward their reins their face was turned, and they must needs go backwards, because they were deprived of looking forward. Perchance sometimes by force of palsy one has been thus completely twisted, but I never saw it, nor do I think it can be."


It appears in Canto XX, where Dante describes the 8th circle.

More about said Canto XX can be found on this page

Thanks! Kochanski, too!
 
I'd like here to quote Sterling's Corollary to Clarke's Third Law:

"Any sufficiently advanced garbage is indistinguishable from magic."
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
 
First of all Blutoski, why do you keep going on about classical skepticism?? I have absolutely zero interest in it and it has absolute zero relevance to the topic at hand. It is simply not relevant how people from a different culture thousands of years ago with a completely different language defined "skepticism". It is how we define skepticism that we should be concerned about. And it no longer has the meaning it originally had (i.e from a few decades ago). That was my complaint.

Originally Posted by Interesting Ian :
It appears to me that this exactly expresses the sentiments of most people on here. Now I think David Hume is a truly excellent philosopher, but I'm afraid in this instance his reasoning is truly appalling. I won't go into why here because I'm sure no -one has an interest in my reasoning anyway (they never normally do).

A skeptic can endorse whatever philosophical position he chooses.

Blutoski
Gibberish.

WTF??

What a complete clown you are.

Originally Posted by Interesting Ian :
I feel a great deal of hostility towards organised skepticism and its aims.

Blutoski
I doubt that.

I don't give a bollocks as to what you doubt. I'm simply stating a fact. I generally do not like skeptics, and disapprove of organised skepticism and its aims. I suggest you deal with it.

I think you feel a great deal of hostility toward its conclusions.

Certainly since these conclusions are not based on any reasoning but are simply an expression of the prevailing western metaphysic.

Its aims are pretty uncontroversial. To be specific, the aims of CSICOP are, and always have been:

to provide a reliable source of information to the public and media on claims of the paranormal
to provide public education in areas of scientific method and paranormal claims
to facilitate open-minded testing of paranormal claims
to provide a forum for the exchange of views

Yeah right. They try to "brainwash" people into thinking that the skeptical/materialist worldview is strongly suggested by both reason and evidence. In which case they are either liars or alternatively they are unbelievably stupid. From conversing with people on this board I'm gravitating more and more towards the latter.


You would prefer we provide unreliable information? Miseducation? Closed-minded testing? Squelch the exchange of views?

Don't be such a complete dick. What I would say is don't tell people that paranormal phenomena don't exist. Don't tell people that reality operates on certain principles. Provide reasons for why you believe what you do! But none of you can can you? That's because you don't have any. You think you do, but what your ilk does all the time is simply beg the question all the time.

If you are truly hostile to these goals, then I can see why you are unpopular here.

I'm unpopular here because I think people on here are mind numbingly stupid and I don't mind telling them so. Our views of the world are absolutely irreconcilable and they are extremely frustrated they haven't managed to "brainwash" me into unthinking acceptance of their belief system like they've managed to do with so many other believers who have come here.
 
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Ian said:
I'm unpopular here because I think people on here are mind numbingly stupid and I don't mind telling them so. Our views of the world are absolutely irreconcilable and they are extremely frustrated they haven't managed to "brainwash" me into unthinking acceptance of their belief system like they've managed to do with so many other believers who have come here.
Yes, that is why I keep coming back and starting new threads to have conversations with a large group of people, every last one of which I think is a liar or mind numbingly stupid.

Sure, we're all trying to brainwash you. Or, alternate theory B: You're spending your time trying to reassure yourself of your own worldview and have yet to convince us all to agree with you.

~~ Paul
 
Oh Ian, what would we do without you? :rolleyes:

Your arrogant brand of no-nonsense woo remains a consistent breath of fresh air :)
 
Yes, that is why I keep coming back and starting new threads to have conversations with a large group of people, every last one of which I think is a liar or mind numbingly stupid.

Sure, we're all trying to brainwash you. Or, alternate theory B: You're spending your time trying to reassure yourself of your own worldview and have yet to convince us all to agree with you.

~~ Paul

The word is hypothesis. I find it mighty strange that a woo woo who wants to be assured his beliefs are correct should come along to here and post thousands and thousands of messages. In my experience believers are simply not interested in attempting communications with skeptics. You know yourself. How many times have you become a member of a believers board only to be shortly booted off? You who are always unfailingly polite??

What does that tell you? I know what it suggests to me. It suggests to me that they don't even want to consider the possibility they are wrong. Their beliefs bring a great deal of comfort to them and they don't want people like you waltzing in and challenging their beliefs. You're simply not welcome.

They don't generally like coming over here, and if they do it's to try and persuade you guys that you're wrong. But they are hopeless naive to think they have a cat in hells chance, and shortly after they disappear.

What they don't do is to stay here year in year out, and post thousands and thousands of posts (about 15,000 in my case, almost more than anyone else).

You really think I'm here to try and reinforce my beliefs? Come now. Think about it.

You're not welcome on believer boards. Maybe I'm not welcome here {shrugs}. I think it's different though from a believer board. I don't think people on here seriously doubt they're wrong for an instance. What I find remarkable in "skeptics" is their complete unshakable confidence that they are right (in complete contrast to sceptics). Nothing I can say can shake that confidence. For a kick-off I don't believe they generally remotely understand what I'm talking about. Indeed I suspect some of you simply skim read my posts, but read the responses to my posts by skeptics in depth and kinda cheer them on so to speak.

And this gets to the heart of it. You guys tend to feel isolated and alone in a world of believers and come here to reinforce your beliefs that you are rational and the rest of the human race is stupid. You like to clap each other on the backs. You like the feeling of belonging. You all like to stick the boot in to the occasional believer who comes here, and you do this for reasons which do not wholly differ from the reasons why a gang of adolescents might go around beating up innocent people. Not all of you, and not you Paul, but a lot of you.
 
Ian said:
The word is hypothesis. I find it mighty strange that a woo woo who wants to be assured his beliefs are correct should come along to here and post thousands and thousands of messages. In my experience believers are simply not interested in attempting communications with skeptics. You know yourself. How many times have you become a member of a believers board only to be shortly booted off? You who are always unfailingly polite??
Nah, it's a theory, well established by observation. Your experience is too limited. There have been plenty of woos posting for long periods of time. Hell, there are plenty of woos with Web sites!

What does that tell you? I know what it suggests to me. It suggests to me that they don't even want to consider the possibility they are wrong. Their beliefs bring a great deal of comfort to them and they don't want people like you waltzing in and challenging their beliefs. You're simply not welcome.
Yes, there are certainly many woos like that. You would be one of them, but rather than banning me you just treat me like an idiot. Different approach, same result.

What they don't do is to stay here year in year out, and post thousands and thousands of posts (about 15,000 in my case, almost more than anyone else).

You really think I'm here to try and reinforce my beliefs? Come now. Think about it.
Yes, I do. You're an evangelical idealist in search of justification for believing that you're not just a corpse after you die.

You're not welcome on believer boards. Maybe I'm not welcome here {shrugs}. I think it's different though from a believer board. I don't think people on here seriously doubt they're wrong for an instance. What I find remarkable in "skeptics" is their complete unshakable confidence that they are right (in complete contrast to sceptics). Nothing I can say can shake that confidence. For a kick-off I don't believe they generally remotely understand what I'm talking about. Indeed I suspect some of you simply skim read my posts, but read the responses to my posts by skeptics in depth and kinda cheer them on so to speak.
You're misinterpreting what most people here say. I have no metaphysical pony to show. I'm happy to hear your explanations of your metaphysic. But you give such a poor description of it that I can't even tell why it's not dualism, what the hell free will is, or why continuing on after death gives you any sense of purpose at all. You almost completely avoid addressing these issues, presumably due to lack of anything interesting to say about them.

And this gets to the heart of it. You guys tend to feel isolated and alone in a world of believers and come here to reinforce your beliefs that you are rational and the rest of the human race is stupid. You like to clap each other on the backs. You like the feeling of belonging. You all like to stick the boot in to the occasional believer who comes here, and you do this for reasons which do not wholly differ from the reasons why a gang of adolescents might go around beating up innocent people. Not all of you, and not you Paul, but a lot of you.
But I daresay we do not feel anywhere near as alone and isolated as a man who thinks everyone else is mind numbingly stupid.

~~ Paul
 
...referring to Ian...

It might be a more convincing act if you let someone else nail you to the cross.
On the other hand, if Ian managed to nail his second hand to the cross that would almost certainly demonstrate paranormal abilities ;)
 
Yes, that is why I keep coming back and starting new threads to have conversations with a large group of people, every last one of which I think is a liar or mind numbingly stupid.

Sure, we're all trying to brainwash you. Or, alternate theory B: You're spending your time trying to reassure yourself of your own worldview and have yet to convince us all to agree with you.

~~ Paul

Not "us all". "Any of us".
 

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