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Are Agnostics Welcome Here?

wollery said:
That's because it's an unfalsifiable proposition.

Let's see if I can do that too.

There will absolutely definitely be new evidence in the future. Prove me wrong. I won't be holdng my breath.

If all you can do is make sweeping unfalsifiable proclamations then I suggest you don't bother.
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No evidence for thousands of years, the prospect for evidence in the future is not very rosy.
 
Nicole Friedman said:
Reading through many of the threads on this forum, I am honestly wondering how posters on this site feel about agnostics, particularly agnostics with "hope" that there is an intelligent force in the universe.
For the record, I consider myself to be a very rational thinker. I cannot commit myself to saying that G-d exists 100% because I have no tangible proof. However, I refuse to say that G-d does not exist for the same reason. Also, I honestly hope that there is some intelligent, good force in this universe; I admit my unscientific bias but even Einstein believed that there was something behind all of this... which leads me back to my thread topic "Are agnostics welcome here?"
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Why would an agnostic even consider to "come here?" That's a huge step down. An agnostic should seek a place where an attempt is being made to break the impasse which defines the agnostics and which separates them from atheists. Look at the example of the Last Fermat Theorem. If you want to leave a place where folks resigned themselves to the idea that the theorem cannot be proven, and they discuss the implication, then joining a group that denies the existence of the Last Fermat Theorem on a whim alone amounts to a mental doom. Just digest the fundamental philosophy this place stands on: I don't believe that God doesn't exist; I know that God doesn't exist and therefore anyone who says otherwise is delusional.

But if you enjoy the company of omniscient demigods, then go upstairs, turn right, and enter the second door to your down.
 
Piggy said:
They're either sufficient or they're not.

Human beings are capable of believing all sorts of nonsensical, self-contradictory, or patently false notions, so pointing out that people believe a thing is no argument in its favor.

Show me a sufficient description or admit that there is none.
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Piggy said:
That's right, I'm a human, and so are you.

So either you're here with something you can, in some way, comprehend and thus discuss... or you're claiming to be able to have an idea of something which is undetectable and incomprehensible, which is an obvious absurdity.

If you say that we can have no knowledge or comprehension or understanding of god, then it's not something anyone could ever have formed any idea about, and therefore it's not something we can even discuss, because we never could have heard of it or imagined it.

So if you plan to discuss god here, then it must necessarily be something that we can, in fact, comprehend in some way and have some sort of experience with.

There's simply no way around that.
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Piggy said:
They're either sufficient or they're not.

Human beings are capable of believing all sorts of nonsensical, self-contradictory, or patently false notions, so pointing out that people believe a thing is no argument in its favor.

Show me a sufficient description or admit that there is none.
Click to expand...


Rather than respond to everything point by point, I’ll ask a number of questions.


Are there things that one person can experience that another person can not (IOW…do we all possess the capacity to experience anything that anyone else experiences…or do we even know the answer to this question)?

Are there things that one person can comprehend that another person cannot?

Are there things that a person can experience that they cannot intellectually comprehend?

Does there exist a definitive intellectual comprehension of consciousness (or, for that matter, any specific area of human nature)?

Is there a difference between ‘truth’ and facts?

Do people use feelings, intuition, imagination…often entirely exclusive of any rationalization…to ‘know’ what to do?

Are choices made in this way legitimate and / or trustworthy?

Are there things that a person can experience that they cannot rationally describe?

Was Wittgenstein right when he said ‘ there are things which must be passed over in silence’ ?

Do different people often experience / interpret / comprehend the same event in different…sometimes very different, ways?

Does the phrase ‘ the heart has reasons that reason knows nothing of ‘ describe a fundamental human truth?

Do you agree with Atran’s observation that all evidence and reason indicates that life is not rational or evidence based?
 
epix said:
Why would an agnostic even consider to "come here?" That's a huge step down. An agnostic should seek a place where an attempt is being made to break the impasse which defines the agnostics and which separates them from atheists. Look at the example of the Last Fermat Theorem. If you want to leave a place where folks resigned themselves to the idea that the theorem cannot be proven, and they discuss the implication, then joining a group that denies the existence of the Last Fermat Theorem on a whim alone amounts to a mental doom. Just digest the fundamental philosophy this place stands on: I don't believe that God doesn't exist; I know that God doesn't exist and therefore anyone who says otherwise is delusional.

But if you enjoy the company of omniscient demigods, then go upstairs, turn right, and enter the second door to your down.
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So why do you come here?


Are you talking about the JREForum when you say "the fundamental philosophy this place stands on: I don't believe that God doesn't exist; I know that God doesn't exist and therefore anyone who says otherwise is delusional"?
 
annnnoid said:
Rather than respond to everything point by point, I’ll ask a number of questions.


Are there things that one person can experience that another person can not (IOW…do we all possess the capacity to experience anything that anyone else experiences…or do we even know the answer to this question)?

Are there things that one person can comprehend that another person cannot?

Are there things that a person can experience that they cannot intellectually comprehend?

Does there exist a definitive intellectual comprehension of consciousness (or, for that matter, any specific area of human nature)?

Is there a difference between ‘truth’ and facts?

Do people use feelings, intuition, imagination…often entirely exclusive of any rationalization…to ‘know’ what to do?

Are choices made in this way legitimate and / or trustworthy?

Are there things that a person can experience that they cannot rationally describe?

Was Wittgenstein right when he said ‘ there are things which must be passed over in silence’ ?

Do different people often experience / interpret / comprehend the same event in different…sometimes very different, ways?

Does the phrase ‘ the heart has reasons that reason knows nothing of ‘ describe a fundamental human truth?

Do you agree with Atran’s observation that all evidence and reason indicates that life is not rational or evidence based?
Click to expand...

Rather than respond to you questions, I’ll ask a number of questions.

Do you believe in god?

Is god one?

Do you believe that Jesus was god?

Can you achieve salvation outside Christianity?

How do we know the Truth?
 
tsig said:
......
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….since I’ve come to the conclusion that Wasp’s departure from JREF was the result of trying to respond to incessantly stupid posts by tsig, dafydd, complexity, and Belz…I’ve decided to simply ignore all of you. Respond to my posts if you want….I won’t be responding to yours (doubtless this will save the moderators lots of time arbitrating conflicts).

It’s kind of ironic considering what the ‘E’ in JREF stands for (education). I think I lost count of the number of posts complimenting Wasp on his ability to clearly explain issues and educate many JREF participants. On the other hand, I doubt that I ever encountered an equivalent compliment directed at any of you four (except incestuously of course). And yet….here, at JREF, one of the most highly regarded ‘educators’ has left in apparent disgust… and what remains is…..?
 
annnnoid said:
….since I’ve come to the conclusion that Wasp’s departure from JREF was the result of trying to respond to incessantly stupid posts by tsig, dafydd, complexity, and Belz…I’ve decided to simply ignore all of you. Respond to my posts if you want….I won’t be responding to yours (doubtless this will save the moderators lots of time arbitrating conflicts).

It’s kind of ironic considering what the ‘E’ in JREF stands for (education). I think I lost count of the number of posts complimenting Wasp on his ability to clearly explain issues and educate many JREF participants. On the other hand, I doubt that I ever encountered an equivalent compliment directed at any of you four (except incestuously of course). And yet….here, at JREF, one of the most highly regarded ‘educators’ has left in apparent disgust… and what remains is…..?
Click to expand...

It's not my fault that Wasp is a prima donna. I've noticed that certain inflated egos here regard simple questions that they cannot answer as being stupid. He could have used the ignore button and only speak to people who agree with him.
 
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annnnoid said:
….since I’ve come to the conclusion that Wasp’s departure from JREF was the result of trying to respond to incessantly stupid posts by tsig, dafydd, complexity, and Belz…I’ve decided to simply ignore all of you. Respond to my posts if you want….I won’t be responding to yours (doubtless this will save the moderators lots of time arbitrating conflicts).

It’s kind of ironic considering what the ‘E’ in JREF stands for (education). I think I lost count of the number of posts complimenting Wasp on his ability to clearly explain issues and educate many JREF participants. On the other hand, I doubt that I ever encountered an equivalent compliment directed at any of you four (except incestuously of course). And yet….here, at JREF, one of the most highly regarded ‘educators’ has left in apparent disgust… and what remains is…..?
Click to expand...


You seem to be laboring under the delusion that others on this board are responsible for Wasps' actions.

Getting frustrated and picking up your ball and going home seems incompatible with being a highly regarded ‘educator'.

(There's two sentences, let's see how you handle them)


ETA:Originally Posted by tsig View Post
You get what you deserve, if you can't understand me when I post one sentence I don't think you'll be able to take two.


annnnoid
….well then lay it on me tsig. Overwhelm me with your erudition and prose. Bury me under your powerful intellect.
 
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tsig said:
You seem to be laboring under the delusion that others on this board are responsible for Wasps' actions.

Getting frustrated and picking up your ball and going home seems incompatible with being a highly regarded ‘educator'.

(There's two sentences, let's see how you handle them)
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Are all educators so childish?
 
annnnoid said:
Rather than respond to everything point by point, I’ll ask a number of questions.


Are there things that one person can experience that another person can not (IOW…do we all possess the capacity to experience anything that anyone else experiences…or do we even know the answer to this question)?

Are there things that one person can comprehend that another person cannot?

Are there things that a person can experience that they cannot intellectually comprehend?

Does there exist a definitive intellectual comprehension of consciousness (or, for that matter, any specific area of human nature)?

Is there a difference between ‘truth’ and facts?

Do people use feelings, intuition, imagination…often entirely exclusive of any rationalization…to ‘know’ what to do?

Are choices made in this way legitimate and / or trustworthy?

Are there things that a person can experience that they cannot rationally describe?

Was Wittgenstein right when he said ‘ there are things which must be passed over in silence’ ?

Do different people often experience / interpret / comprehend the same event in different…sometimes very different, ways?

Does the phrase ‘ the heart has reasons that reason knows nothing of ‘ describe a fundamental human truth?

Do you agree with Atran’s observation that all evidence and reason indicates that life is not rational or evidence based?
Click to expand...

Yes.

Yes.

That's a very complex question that needs more teasing out.

I don't know what that question means.

The language is too murky to provide an answer.

Depends on what you mean by "know", which you yourself have put into quotation marks, indicating you're not sure.

I don't know what "legitimate" means in this context, and such decisions sometimes play out and sometimes don't.

Yes. Try explaining an acid trip to someone who's never had one.

You mean are there things we should pretend to ignore... like the horrible congealed salad at the family reunion? I certainly think so.

Yes.

Yes, in a poetic/metaphorical sort of way.

I don't understand what it would mean to declare that "life" is "rational" or "evidence based". Are icebergs rational and evidence-based?
 
Thanks for the answers Piggy, I’ll get back shortly (depending on other commitments). Just so you know, these aren’t trick questions or anything. Unlike various others on some of these threads, I respect your position (you’ve obviously spent a great deal of time and effort arriving at it)…but I still think you’re wrong. The questions are simply an attempt to understand how you understand certain issues. From my POV…your thinking is locked in a rigid pattern that I need to find a way to pry open. Hopefully the questions will provide some starting points. We’ll see.

…….happy Rudolph day.
 
annnnoid said:
Thanks for the answers Piggy, I’ll get back shortly (depending on other commitments). Just so you know, these aren’t trick questions or anything. Unlike various others on some of these threads, I respect your position (you’ve obviously spent a great deal of time and effort arriving at it)…but I still think you’re wrong. The questions are simply an attempt to understand how you understand certain issues. From my POV…your thinking is locked in a rigid pattern that I need to find a way to pry open. Hopefully the questions will provide some starting points. We’ll see.

…….happy Rudolph day.
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Although you respect his position and think he's spent a great deal of time and effort arriving at it you also think he's locked in his thinking and you are the one to pry it open.

How condescending.

(that's two)

ETA:ETA:Originally Posted by tsig View Post
You get what you deserve, if you can't understand me when I post one sentence I don't think you'll be able to take two.


annnnoid
….well then lay it on me tsig. Overwhelm me with your erudition and prose. Bury me under your powerful intellect.
 
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tsig said:
Although you respect his position and think he's spent a great deal of time and effort arriving at it you also think he's locked in his thinking and you are the one to pry it open.

How condescending.
Click to expand...

To be fair, I remember back to my first few semesters at grad school; from my lofty perch I could barely see those struggling in ignorance so far below. Then, well, I discovered why it's called an education.
 
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annnnoid said:
….since I’ve come to the conclusion that Wasp’s departure from JREF was the result of trying to respond to incessantly stupid posts by tsig, dafydd, complexity, and Belz…I’ve decided to simply ignore all of you. Respond to my posts if you want….I won’t be responding to yours (doubtless this will save the moderators lots of time arbitrating conflicts).
Click to expand...

And here you go again. Haven't you been warned for this kind of behaviour ? Why are you incapable of interacting with your fellow members in a friendly manner ?
 
annnnoid said:
Thanks for the answers Piggy, I’ll get back shortly (depending on other commitments). Just so you know, these aren’t trick questions or anything. Unlike various others on some of these threads, I respect your position (you’ve obviously spent a great deal of time and effort arriving at it)…but I still think you’re wrong. The questions are simply an attempt to understand how you understand certain issues. From my POV…your thinking is locked in a rigid pattern that I need to find a way to pry open. Hopefully the questions will provide some starting points. We’ll see.

…….happy Rudolph day.
Click to expand...

You don't strike me as the gotcha kind of guy, so I figured that these were openers, which is why I gave you as accurate a set of answers as I could.

And it's fine if you think I'm wrong, a lot of people do.

And the more I learn, it's pretty common to hit a new idea and think, wait, maybe this changes things... but so far, nothing's panned out.

And it seems to me that, as things stand, there's now a fundamental dilemma, given what we know and what gods have always been, which leaves us no exit from atheism.

You can re-define god to mean something it has never meant, or you can make it equivalent to something that does exist like brute nature (in which case it becomes nothing, since there will be perfect overlap in the Venn diagrams for God and not-God), or you can de-define it altogether by making it into an I-don't-know-what (another nothing), or you can simply make claims that are contrary to fact.

All of which leaves you with invalid arguments for the claim "God is real".

I honestly don't see any possible way out of this situation for god... or phlogiston, or unicorns, or any number of debunked ideas.
 
Wasp is listed as a guest now. I can't believe he left! Didn't expect that. He was so great on the historical lit threads. This bums me out. :(
 
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